12V92TA 1080HP Detroit Diesel engines -2 Stroke Diesel

[prinex]

Older Sanlorenzo for example have them. So this dealer has a SL70 from 91. The boat is internally very good, looks properly cared for, engine room clean, no smell / water stains etc and a sub-200K Euro price. One engine 1000 hours, the other 1680.

But: boat has the 12V92TA 2 Stroke engines. Which are not made since whatever and parts are hard to find (but you can find complete engines for 30K or such).

Now from the specs the curve starts at 1200 rpm for 200hp at propeller load which means 35l/h. With 2 engines running that would be a whopping 400hp, 11kn, 70l/h hour and a bow wave you can surf on.
So my question: can this thing being driven at 900/1000 rpm without destroying the engines ? Or should I just use them and accept the 70/l hour for 11kn ? Or repower the boat for displacement-only (like 2x350 Iveco or such) and chug along at 10kn ?

Basically Im getting myself in tons of trouble with this engines and should I just forget it, add another 200K and find a boat with MTUs or MANs.

 

[burgundyben]

I reckon that's the most frightening post I've ever seen on YBW.

Its a lot of boat for £200k.

To be honest, I can't see a sensible way forward with it and I'm a hopeless optimist.

I doubt the 350 Iveco idea works in practice, you'd need a very deep reduction box, plus struggle to overcome the inertial in the shafts etc.

 

[ChromeDome]

No reason to insist on taking chances when other offers are "just add water".

At a GW of 80 tons (!) any sort of speed will take a lot of power, to be generated by burning fuel, regardless of engine make and model.
If in addition, the engines are at risk of needing work and parts, the budget has to include a hefty buffer.

For general information and/or comparison:
SAN LORENZO 70 motor yacht for sale | De Valk Yacht broker

 

[Portofino]

Live with it .
Nurse them along , speak to other DD owners find who the local guy is tap him up for info .
It think you are looking down the wrong end of a telescope worrying about consumption in a 30 y old 70 ftr .
Its berth costs ( Liguria) and replacing stuff , maintenance eg a lift + anodes + AF will consume more then your fuel bill .
If you are really worried about the fuel buy a sail boat .Bigger one’s over 60 ft loose that cramped feeling and gain plenty of flat deck space for sun lounging etc .

 

[MapisM]

It think you are looking down the wrong end of a telescope worrying about consumption in a 30 y old 70 ftr.

Bingo.

I'm always surprised when people look at boats and think it's possible to budget the running costs based on the purchasing price.
A 70' flybridge is a luxury toy, costing 4 millions or thereabout when purchased new.
THIS is the right perspective for considering the purchase, and the fact that such thing can be bought at just 5% of that amount when old is irrelevant.
It remains something that will always trigger running costs proportional to a 4M luxury toy, period.
If not even more, considering that maintenance is very unlikely to decrease with age.

In fact, I disagree that a sailboat is a good alternative: only not buying a boat at all is the real solution to this conundrum!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

A 21/22 meter yacht costs like 50k a year for looking at her in a Marina and doing ordinary maintenance. In some locations this might double....

Detroits can be a blessing and while they might drink a bit more to Mans (possibly by not much as the 1100 or 1200 fitted to the 70 are 25 liters if I remember well), they are cheaper to maintain if you find the right mechanic working on them.
The Iveco repower is.... doh, I think I read this somewhere else before, stupid idea.
Also more so with older boats and those built like a brick, getting it wrong is far more easier then getting it right.

Locally some years ago they repowered a Posillipo 47 Tobago from 2 GM 430hp 9 liters to twin Cats 420hp 7 liters, and the way this boat lost all is balance is incredible.
They made two season trying to fix the mess, which was still inferior to the original stuff, with consumptions only going down to about 20%.

Now imagine having twin GM 1080hp I think they are 19 litres, and putting the twin Iveco/FPT 350hp of what 5 litres cc.
Whatever speed you want to do, that boat will end up chines out of the water when in the marina, unless you ballast her really heavy.

tbh all this rhetoric makes me think you are trying to stretch to much for a Condo on the water of what ones real possibilities are... Without Offence....

And I will stand with Mapis here your real solution here is not buying a boat and get a Condo, you will not think of Liter per NM and the rest (because as Porto says the LpNm is the least of the problems), and you might also get some return to your investment if the location is correct. And when money will start flowing again you will sell it with a profit, with the World moving so fast nowadays that might be not far away from that....

 

[prinex]

Guys im well aware of costs and such, i just wanted to know if buying a boat with that particular engine will get me more in trouble than some other engine.
That's all.
I did had a look at other boats (vz18, guy coauch 195, sq62) and in this mix this one came up so asking for advice.
But not if a condo is a better investment, I wanted to know If this idea makes less sense than buying a new boat or a 18 mt boat instead of 20 maybe.
Still I learned something, I did not knew that thing weight 80 tons for example.
I mean between 50k a year and an additional 100k depreciation, and 50k a year and 20k depreciation it does look on the paper like the better option, as the running costs are maybe in the same ballpark (more maintenance, less insurance, less things that need to be fixed perfectly).
The idea with repowering came from someone which did the same on a similar boat and is still happy or at least he says so.
I know how much a 20m berth cost from Ventimiglia to imperia. And where you can lift out without paying 5k, and the many things that break or not on boats. The area where I need advice is engine and fuel which are 2 things I never worried before. They are not the driver of decisions, just part of the puzzle.

 

[Portofino]

At that age the engine question really depends on its service history , it’s maintenance regime.
The only thing about DDs is they soot up more being two strokes if used a lot below optimal rpms ie D speeds that your talking about 11 knots etc .
Consequently they have a shorter rebuild time iirc 5000 hr for new liners + pistons as the soot abrades these. This is even at normal cruise because the two stroke burn at normal temps develops pretty abrasive particles compared to a four stroke .
So excess D speed might reel in that 5000 hrs reduce it to nearer 3500hrs or what ever ?

12 cylinders X2 = expensive, hence the borderline bin them and repower ( at considerable lower Hp ) for D speed with a modern four stroke enters into the equation, which is where you are now .
A guy called “ Alf “ on here did a thread a few yrs ago rebuild his DD s in situ .

The competition say equivalent MAN / MTU depending on again the maintenance regime all things being equal can and do do 15-20000 hrs before new liners / pistons because the products of a four stroke diesel burn are less abrasive and the oils being multi grade are arguably better at protecting .as the hrs rack up .The DD s run on single grade btw and I suspect needs more frequent lub changes , but leisure boaters I suspect aren’t , racking up commercial hrs .So just an annual should suffice .

But aged V 8 , 10 esp 12 s MAN / MTUs have there own maintenance rabbit holes regarding cooling system hygiene = many thousands potentially .Water pump rebuilds are another cost , but they have weep holes, so tell you when they are ready for pulling , workshop , strip and rebuilding . Typically €10 -15K for a cooler job on a Vee MAN and up to another €4 k for a pair of water pump overhauls
A four pipe set of exhausts for a pair of Vs €15 k in stainless steel .Maybe more 1000s if the exhaust flanges have started to rot out near the turbos ?

You need to ideally see evidence of this stuff in the maintenance history file .

Thats why theses boats are cheap = there’s a lack of buyers prepared to take on and tackle on going maintenance.

So thats what MapishM, PYB and myself mean by forget the fuel burn it’s insignificant in terms of the global ownership costs .

So back to DD s you needs to know the hrs since the last rebuild ( which you do ) , your usage hrs and figure out how much time before you have to rebuild them …….and the effect that has on the residual value .As i said find out who the local DD guy(s) are and get them to survey the motors if you are serious taking on DDs .

 

[prinex]

Thanks Porto, well the fact that it apparently is 80 tons of weight is already putting me off all this ordeal and swerving back to the SQ58 / 62 which may be less of a gamble after all.

the fuel burn it’s insignificant in terms of the global ownership costs

Specially if you are burning 100K a year in depreciation alone and using it for 80 hours a year, you cannot take care of the boat in winter so more cost etc. In this terms 10K or 20K fuel are insignificant. If you are popping down Millions you probably wants to find your boat clean and all this things add up.

But actually thinking of it fuel cost may be insignificant after all, I mean even doing a big Liguria / Santa Maria di Leuca and back in a summer - lets say 1500 miles - on 10kn, at 5l/mile or 8/l mile it still would be only a 3/4K difference (Im not planning to cruise long stretches at 26kn anyway). 2 weeks of day cruising, 6 weeks anchored somewhere where possible, public ports when needed and avoid Porto Cervo marinas which would suck me dry.

So giving that berth costs are the same if I spend 4 Mio or 200K on a boat, fuel does not really matter, and we boldy assume that non-engine / transmission issues and related costs (carpet, toilets, tanks, electric thing etc) in the old boat are higher (but less than the insurance alone on a 4Mio rig or the 2K ipad-in-the-cabin), this leaves us with: the engine and his nightmares.

Which was the reason I liked the VZ18 (Man 800), Guy Coauch 195 (MTU 800), SQ58 (Cat 800) etc. instead of 1500HP behemoths like Maiora 20s have (or the water jet things etc). As there is a ton more experise around where I live on such engines.

Only problem the ones I found (2002/2006) are actually sold on the spot even running at 400K a piece (or are trash), this one was nice Coauch 195 but apparently sold in 1 week. Or this Coauch 185 which turned out to be a boat where someone was living in and water was pouring in the cabin from a crack somewhere. There are 2 SQ62 on the market and the "cheap" one is 410K for a 2001 boat. SL62s disappeared and a 1996 is for 460K or such on the market, also a 235K one which is so dilapidated it makes you cry. So few good boats or trash or too expensive for my budget.

Now some broker said grab the SL70 which is beatifully kept by his owner, is old and all but comes "cheap" and spend the 250K left over in sorting out the engine drama (or put them in an account for the big day where the engines say bye bye). So the repower idea (engine / trans / shafts / props) recovering some costs from selling the old ones was born - which may be the worst idea ever. And the inquiry what kind of engine is this and all.

For the records: 20m Berths in Imperia are 9K a Year atm. Aregai port will make a very good offer if you stay 3-4 years. Lifting on/out 20M in Port Napo is 1.5K with cleaning and 500 Euro/month dry. Navy Service is cheaper but not so nice, I used both of them in the past for the trawler. I would still pay for a berth in Portosole for 15K/20K for the next 2-3 years even if Imperia is close, just because is nice to drive 1km to the marina instead of 10.

But again, maybe is just a bad idea.

 

[MapisM]

the fact that it apparently is 80 tons of weight is already putting me off all this ordeal

It seems to me that you keep looking at some meaningless numbers, because I can't think of a single reason why weight alone should put you off.
Well, aside from wanting to use a yard that can't handle it, maybe. But I don't think in Liguria you should struggle to find yards with 80T travel lifts.

Regardless, if the 80T is the only thing you don't like of that SL, as we would say in Italy, stai sereno.
I'm not sure of why ChomeDome came up with that number, but that boat doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of weighing 80T. Not even close.
I can't actually be positive about the SL70 specifically (BTW, are you sure she isn't actually called Sanlorenzo 20m? Not that this really matters, mind!), but having in mind the weight of other boats of very similar size and type, from Canados, Alalunga, Technema, Maiora, Ferretti... (and also the SL72!), I am willing to bet that she doesn't even reach 60T.

That said... What difference does it really make for you?

 

[Portofino]

What do you want from a boat ? Use age pattern ?
I know MapishM lives on his in a second home kinda way in a quiet area and flys in for long stays so the floating apartment thingy features high .
You talk of Porto Cervo ( NE tip of Sardinia for those unfamiliar - great + good summer ) with prices that make St Trop - Monaco look positively cheapo !
But we Liguarian based boaters all tour off S at least on one big trip .
Not wanting to teach granny to suck eggs - but Elba , Argentario , and even closer Portofino bay + La Spetzia are all within reach .
The other Tuscan islands and even N Corsica - ok French but the boating s great .

What we do is go to places where friends hotel themselves and day boat them .
Just saves towing around a 80 ton or 50 ton apartment and crucially funding that for them for a few weeks a year .
Yes we have 2 cabins + saloon , so i have my grown up kids ( + partners) as useful crew , but others shack up on land .
The rest of the time in between hosting wife + little dog enjoy the freedom of a 30 knot cruiser to cover ground quickly at a reasonable cost .A cost in overall fuel and annual running the thing .
But we are only seasonal boaters June to Oct .
When we were in Fr 12 yrs with the Porto 35 and school age kids ( school hol boating dates ) we went through all this “ should we buy an older 18 - 20 M ….agony .It was agony btw incessant brokers , incessant pressure at shows to buy new or bigger S/Sker .
We killed it off by buying a house in Antibes a do er upper and basically put the uplift €€€into bricks + mortar .

Just continued with a 15 m sports boat , carefully figured out placing emphasis on ride comfort.So we can get to the places mentioned ^^^ easily .
Evey one’s has different emphasis, that’s a given .So what’s yours ?

 

[prinex]

> That said... What difference does it really make for you?

We are talking in a fuel consumption thread ... I guess weight plays a role in fuel consumption ? Lets run some numbers thru Gerrs... 40ton we have 350 SHP at 11/12 kn for that boat ... now lets change it to 80ton ... blimey ! 717 HP ! So it looks like weight does play a role in fuel consumption after all (skipping the sizing of bow/aft thrusters etc).
Ok we agreed fuel does not matter is just a rounding error in the 100K deprec + 50K Mallorca Marina + 55K captain + 10K yearly rebuild.
But in my numbers its 20K deprec + 9K Imperia Marina + 0K captain (me) + 10K yearly rebuild. On my 39K out to be 10K out in fuel instead of 20K matters. For the guys with 220K a year fuel bill of 20K is another story. Forgot financing the 4 Mios at 200K interest a year + 200K principal btw, that would be 620K a year ... clearly Im not playing in their league.
So as you can see it does make a difference at least for me.

> What do you want from a boat ? Use age pattern ?

This is actually a good question. I would define it as a flybridge able to be lived aboard by a couple, with occasional visits from kids + friends - so 3 cabins. Needs to have a separate space that we can use as an office, a complete kitchen, a working laundry etc. Must be accessible that is no crawling in cabins or opening hatches to do the laundry. Planned crusing grounds are Mallorca / Ibiza, Sardinia down to Santa Maria di Leuca, the Adriatic coast up to Venice, Greece. Lots of nights at anchor so not a drum.
Must have recent engines and no 1500HP monster. And be in the 400K Range.

Actually a trawler if you think of it, there is nice one here Skagen 50 but no one likes it (and it does not like roomy and is half a Million). And in the med trawlers are rare to find and generally some leftover from the 80s (or Magellanos or Swift Trawler or such which I dont like and more important my wife does not like).

We found VZ18 / SQ58 / SQ62 all fit this pattern, solid, decent sized engines. VZ18 has the 4th cabin in the back and the big utility room all accessible from the inside. SQ58 has a laundry space which is nice . SQ62 a sort of mid-cabin and is wider.
All beautiful boats. Better than the SL70 for what I need. Guy Coauch 185/195 also nice with the mid-cabin but poor 3d cabin and laundry down the hatch.

But im open to suggestions, Im sure there are tons of boat that fit that Im not even aware of. Just dont tell me to buy another condo. Or a sailing cat.

Btw this is the boat, maybe you can work out what kind of San Lorenzo it is.

 

[Portofino]

Looks like an early SL 20 and that would work for you .

 

[ChromeDome]

..
I'm not sure of why ChomeDome came up with that number, but that boat doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of weighing 80T. Not even close.
..

Just taken from the De Valk advert linked in #3

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Looks like an early SL 20 and that would work for you .

She is the Sanlorenzo 70 produced from 1989 to 1995, replaced by the 72 in 1996/7.

Last units in 1994 to 95 also had rounded stern, with some brokers calling them a 72 which they are not.
70 is slimmer, has an aft fourth VIP aft cabin, central wing mast instead of the integrated radar arch, and the side decks are single level and has a straighter line.
Off and on I would say she was heavier then the Maiora and Canados, between 60 to 70 T. This can also be said as they where also slower with the Man 1200s versus a Canados 70S fitted with the same engines.
Everything is over build on these things, and they drink off my mind about 17/18 liters per nautical mile at about 20/22 knots.
The hull had not a nice CoG and was quite a wet ride.
For example a Canados 70S rides much better, as does the Maiora 20, though I heard news that the Cats 1250hp powered units ran better and consumed less.

 

[MapisM]

Just taken from the De Valk advert linked in #3

Only goes to show how much you can trust brokers' ads - not!
80T is plain nonsense, for that boat.

 

[MapisM]

I would say she was heavier then the Maiora and Canados, between 60 to 70 T.

Can't be positive for that particular model, but I've seen an SL72 staying just under the 60T mark while hanging on a travel lift that proved rather accurate in several other occasions. And she wasn't empty either - around one third fuel, in fact.
So, even if I fully agree that all SL are built like brick sh!thouses, I very much doubt that the above boat can be anywhere near 70T (let alone 80!).

 

[MapisM]

But im open to suggestions, Im sure there are tons of boat that fit that Im not even aware of.

In the size/type of boats you're considering, on top of the builders already discussed, I can only think of another couple of names which would be silly to ignore: CdP/Akhir and Alalunga.

Actually, since you mentioned trawlers (but mind, the Skagen is NOT a trawler by any stretch of the imagination!), there are several other names that spring to mind. But since as I understand you are also considering (as well as I do!) value for money, forget them all, semi-displacement boats included.
Due to how the market developed in the last couple of decades, the offer/demand is keeping their prices ridiculously high when compared to even top quality planing boats - as surely SL, VZ, and others discussed so far are.
For instance, I would have preferred a Fleming 55 to the DP 56 I eventually bought.
But paying twice the price for a F55 in mediocre conditions, or up to 3 times for one in conditions as good as my DP, quite frankly is beyond a joke.

Not to mention that in this day and age, after 17 years of 8 to 9 knots cruising with a real trawler, I don't bother anymore about fuel, and I normally cruise anywhere between 20 and 25 knots.
The boat runs majestically and is stable as a rock at that speed, most of my favourite anchorages are within half an hour from my home berth, I'm getting older rather than younger, and life is short.
Why on earth should I care if I now burn 7 rather than 2 litres per nautical mile?!?
Eat your heart out, Greta!

 

[Portofino]

A year a two back ( like most ) I was wobbling, wondering about up sizing for the very same reasons as Prinex .
Lunching at Varrazzi, just down the way from us I came upon these two both listed .
iirc DD powered as well ? 3 K hrs etc .Both immaculate btw a million miles away from any project work , both fastidiously maintained .
Wife did the maths , about usage time etc , the relative actual need for lugging extra bedrooms about .I did the boaty cruise mental gymnastics at 20-22 knots with the 2x or what ever fuel burn .The extra maintenance issues 14 m Vs these @18M inc the 2x berthing , haul out etc and then the emotional letting go if the Itama .I couldn’t do it let go of the Itama .
As I have said ^^ it’s just as easy if not more convenient all round for folks to fly into Genoa , Pisa or Roma and hotel themselves as it’s turned out .

So glad I kept my resolve and loving the Itama even more cos it’s great to ride in it about in the summer .Esp Italy.
Bit like touring about )warning car analogy) Italy in a Ferrari Daytona or 512bb .The locals just love them .

Appreciate if Prinex is getting tired or worried about VP outdrive ownership and current boats not big enough = time for change .

Anyhow here are the two others still in my pic files under “ next boat “


SL 58 very well prepared on DD s .Cons ladder down to the sea, and tender hung off davits .Needed nothing circa back then 2017/18 iirc €180 K asking maybe lower €160 K ?

Below ….modal name on the side .I can’t remember if it was plastic or wood ? But if wood even at €120 K you just write that off amortisation it over 10 yrs of use and any end value is just a bonus.That’s was my pragmatic thinking at the time .
No bathing platform or hydraulic Passerelle, but they are off the shelf items anyhow .
This had high bulwarks for dog safety if he needed up running about .

Both old girls and under 20 M and I thought back then @18 M the berth availability / costs were generally better .
Some one cold called ( dock walked up ) and wanted my Itama , or first refusal at the time so that triggered the “ itch “
Cost to change negligible at the time .

As said glad i didn’t proceed .
But we are all different.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Only goes to show how much you can trust brokers' ads - not!
80T is plain nonsense, for that boat.

tbh you might be correct 80T might be the volume , not the weight of the boat

Still I would rate the SL 70 a bit heavier to the Maiora which weigh in between 55 to 60t.

The SL72 is more or less the same length but wider. So may be 60t would be correct.