12v Cable frugality

[PaulRainbow]

My current boat was built in 1988 by one of the top UK builders, Princess, costing over £160,000 at the time. All of the DC wiring is fine stranded copper, none of which is tinned. The AC system is all domestic copper.

None of the DC wiring is black. The AC wiring is still intact and in perfect condition.

The wiring is all well supported and in dry conditions.

My previous boat was a 1980 Westerly, wired with non-tinned cable throughout. Lots of original wiring in good condition in dry places.

Any AC wiring that i do is, of course, done with multistrand cable.

I would not waste my time with the solid core cable that Noelex is talking about. 10m of suitable flex would cost peanuts.

Regards the comments about fires, wiring a relatively small solar panel with underrated cable isn't going to cause a fire. It will cause lots of voltage drop though.

 

[Neeves]

My current boat was built in 1988 by one of the top UK builders, Princess, costing over £160,000 at the time. All of the DC wiring is fine stranded copper, none of which is tinned. The AC system is all domestic copper.

None of the DC wiring is black. The AC wiring is still intact and in perfect condition.

The wiring is all well supported and in dry conditions.

My previous boat was a 1980 Westerly, wired with non-tinned cable throughout. Lots of original wiring in good condition in dry places.

Any AC wiring that i do is, of course, done with multistrand cable.

I would not waste my time with the solid core cable that Noelex is talking about. 10m of suitable flex would cost peanuts.

Regards the comments about fires, wiring a relatively small solar panel with underrated cable isn't going to cause a fire. It will cause lots of voltage drop though.

Thank you Paul.

Just so I am clear, what do you mean by "domestic' in

The AC system is all domestic copper.

I can increase the 'amount' cross sectional area to be excessive - that is not an issue.

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

Thank you Paul.

Just so I am clear, what do you mean by "domestic' in

The AC system is all domestic copper.

I can increase the 'amount' cross sectional area to be excessive - that is not an issue.

Jonathan

Standard 2.5mm domestic twin and Earth.

I would not use it today, or suggest that anyone else does, but it does suggest the World would not end if someone did.

In your case, i'd still buy 10m of decent flex. If you don't need it after your testing it will come in handy somewhere.

 

[Tranona]

The only bit of the original wiring I kept in my 1979 GH was the interior light circuits which was all domestic single core well clipped along the beams to the lights.

 

[lustyd]

(but tinning is a red herring - ignore)

Tinning isn't a red herring, it's the same outcome caused by different factors. The deteriorated copper resulting from untinned cable in certain environments will still raise resistance. There are other mitigations there though, like having a dry boat.

The timing will be almost random since vibration and movement are not consistent. The outcome potentially a catastrophic fire. Essentially then, you're accepting a ticking time bomb on board if you can be sure the timer is longer than your own tenure.

I will accept that there is less risk on the solar to controller connection if an MPPT is being used or a suitable fuse installed. I think many of us are in the camp of "if a job's worth doing" mentality, hence the resistance to your idea. I don't actually think you're at huge risk but I wouldn't do it myself. I'd not expect vibration will be a problem before water damage resulting from the cable construction. You are, after all, talking about a fairly exposed cable which will likely be a bit "gappy" at the ends and using open Andersen connectors rather than MC4 watertight ones.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

But first I fully accept your analysis.

Vibration and movement will lead to work hardening the individual wires might fail.

In isolation this is a risk - the question is how big a risk. I accept that it is inevitable - but to make a judgement I need to know how quickly, or slowly, this will happen.

I assume that historically this happened on yachts, an investigation was conducted resulting in the current recommendation to use multi strand copper wire, preferably tinned (but tinning is a red herring - ignore).

A question is how often did this occur what was the frequency, how long did this take to happen. If it takes 10 years, I'll have moved onto something else - anchors look interesting....

Considering the when - this would have been decades ago (so no marinas) yachts would have been kept on swing moorings or trots.

So did wires typically break within a week, a month, a year or was it more insidious 2-4 years. Was this common - were fleets of the then top of the range Moodys being re-wired...

We have two recent examples, Refueler and Roger the Bodger - use of strip on solar panels failing, How long did they take to fail?, one week, one month, one year a few years. Is this common - if so - solar panel makers have been ignoring reality.

I'm talking of making up a lead to test a solar panel over the next 3 months, if its interesting maybe 6 months. If the lead survives I may use it for 'something else'. There is no vibration, there is no flex. The cable is freely suspended. It is attached to an Anderson at the panel and then clipped to a secure bracket and is freely hung to be secured immovably, 10m away, at a locker lid and then attached to another Anderson. The locker houses a 200 amp hr battery, controller and meter (sadly not Victron). Meter displays, amps, voltage and total amps. I can introduce a load to the battery - any time I want.

Without the requested data - time, how long - then I need to test myself to know how long, hardening and failure, it takes to happen - in my specific environnment.

Jonathan

Here I can buy single core stranded 4mm square doubly insulated solar panel cable for 60p per metre & MC4 connectors for 80p each. You must be a real skinflint, or maybe you just like blathering on for the sake of it. Probably both.

 

[noelex]

It is said more than 80% of boat fires are electrical. Now I understand why. Owners seem determined to do dumb things despite copious advice from experts pointing out the right way to wire up marine equipment.

 

[Neeves]

I will now clarify.

The suggestion to use single core cable, bundled together to develop the safe cross sectional area was a means to use redundant wire. Cost was a factor but not significant.

The application is - a folding solar panel on the roof of our house, its a flat concrete roof. I am simply monitoring the performance of the panel against its specification. The panel specification is 'best case' and its not best case sun, its a bit low in the sky, currently. The closest I can get the battery and ancillary equipment and keep it all dry is 10m which has demanded using a commercial lead - for which I have better (and more important uses). The panel is leisure, not for domestic house usage, and would neatly fit on 35' yacht and fold for easy storage when not in use. The cable could be left in situ (no bending or flexing) and simply be disconnected from the panel and the ends secured neatly inside the accomodation.

The application could be a panel on the foredeck of a yacht with the battery in an internal locker.

There would be no risk of fire, the proposed cable would be over large rather than minimalist. There should be no risk of hardening to the wire in the time span considered - though I might use the cable for other tests of other panels or other devices.

What the thread has revealed is that some professionals are using single core wires in marine environment without issues. They are using cable that is decades old - and they have had no issues - and obviously do not foresee issues as they would not otherwise use them. There has been repetitive comment on the potential failure but in fact no-one has experienced such a failure and no-one has any idea on how often it happened or the time span for failure to occur. The usage of single core cable to which I refer took some time to be revealed and no-one has made any comment. I suspect there are many cases of older yachts being equiped with old single core cables. There have been 2 quoted cases on failure of solar panels by use, by the manufacturers, of 'ribbon' connectors that failed - but the fact this is probably commonplace - did not engender a single comment. For those who questioned the connectors - the panel is obviously intended for outdoor use and came with an Anderson plug.

Basically most are simply repeating accepted anecdotal conclusion (of which there has never been a question) and enjoying the opportunity to belittle and insult (without knowing the reality)


It has been an interesting experiment in attitudes.

For those few who actually answered the question raised - would the cable actually work, were there implications of which I should be aware, many thanks. For those who quoted their experiences, with old single core wire or failed solar panels - interesting and certainly panel failure through use of inadequate connectors is questionable - and might merit further exploration. So thank you Paul, Tranona, Angus , Lusty, Hugh, Refueler and Roger - and some I might have missed who actually answered the question - and did not resort to belittling.

For he that suggested I might be being bloody minded - that was astute - I did laterally become interested to see reactions - some of which were 'unnecessary' and I would be embarrassed to have made them (but hey its a forum. ).

My testing does indicate that many manufacturers and retailers of solar panels are less than professional and there are many improvements that could be made, at minimal cost.

In the future I'll list my conclusions on the PBO forum

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

It is said more than 80% of boat fires are electrical. Now I understand why. Owners seem determined to do dumb things despite copious advice from experts pointing out the right way to wire up marine equipment.

If you are using single strand wire anywhere in your vessel - take note.

J

 

[PaulRainbow]

I will now clarify.

The suggestion to use single core cable, bundled together to develop the safe cross sectional area was a means to use redundant wire. Cost was a factor but not significant.

The application is - a folding solar panel on the roof of our house, its a flat concrete roof. I am simply monitoring the performance of the panel against its specification. The panel specification is 'best case' and its not best case sun, its a bit low in the sky, currently. The closest I can get the battery and ancillary equipment and keep it all dry is 10m which has demanded using a commercial lead - for which I have better (and more important uses). The panel is leisure, not for domestic house usage, and would neatly fit on 35' yacht and fold for easy storage when not in use. The cable could be left in situ (no bending or flexing) and simply be disconnected from the panel and the ends secured neatly inside the accomodation.

The application could be a panel on the foredeck of a yacht with the battery in an internal locker.

In post #40 you said:

"I'm talking of making up a lead to test a solar panel over the next 3 months, if its interesting maybe 6 months. If the lead survives I may use it for 'something else'. There is no vibration, there is no flex. The cable is freely suspended. It is attached to an Anderson at the panel and then clipped to a secure bracket and is freely hung to be secured immovably, 10m away, at a locker lid and then attached to another Anderson. The locker houses a 200 amp hr battery, controller and meter (sadly not Victron). Meter displays, amps, voltage and total amps. I can introduce a load to the battery - any time I want."

Now you say it's going to be used in a house. This, to my mind, is dishonest. You have allowed to thread to go on for 49 posts, with all contributors under the impression that you plan to use the cable for a roving panel on deck, in fact that is also what you said.

That's bad.

There would be no risk of fire, the proposed cable would be over large rather than minimalist. There should be no risk of hardening to the wire in the time span considered - though I might use the cable for other tests of other panels or other devices.

What the thread has revealed is that some professionals are using single core wires in marine environment without issues. They are using cable that is decades old - and they have had no issues - and obviously do not foresee issues as they would not otherwise use them.

This is also misleading. I am nut using single core cable in a professional capacity, i told you that there was some on my current boat, dating back to 1988. I also said that i would not use such cable myself. In fact, as i carry out the updates and minor refit of the boat (which i have only owned for just over a year, the solid cable is being replaced with 2.5mm 3-core flex.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

In post #40 you said:

"I'm talking of making up a lead to test a solar panel over the next 3 months, if its interesting maybe 6 months. If the lead survives I may use it for 'something else'. There is no vibration, there is no flex. The cable is freely suspended. It is attached to an Anderson at the panel and then clipped to a secure bracket and is freely hung to be secured immovably, 10m away, at a locker lid and then attached to another Anderson. The locker houses a 200 amp hr battery, controller and meter (sadly not Victron). Meter displays, amps, voltage and total amps. I can introduce a load to the battery - any time I want."

Now you say it's going to be used in a house. This, to my mind, is dishonest. You have allowed to thread to go on for 49 posts, with all contributors under the impression that you plan to use the cable for a roving panel on deck, in fact that is also what you said.

That's bad.



This is also misleading. I am nut using single core cable in a professional capacity, i told you that there was some on my current boat, dating back to 1988. I also said that i would not use such cable myself. In fact, as i carry out the updates and minor refit of the boat (which i have only owned for just over a year, the solid cable is being replaced with 2.5mm 3-core flex.

Just let him get on with it.

 

[Neeves]

In post #40 you said:

"I'm talking of making up a lead to test a solar panel over the next 3 months, if its interesting maybe 6 months. If the lead survives I may use it for 'something else'. There is no vibration, there is no flex. The cable is freely suspended. It is attached to an Anderson at the panel and then clipped to a secure bracket and is freely hung to be secured immovably, 10m away, at a locker lid and then attached to another Anderson. The locker houses a 200 amp hr battery, controller and meter (sadly not Victron). Meter displays, amps, voltage and total amps. I can introduce a load to the battery - any time I want."

Now you say it's going to be used in a house. This, to my mind, is dishonest. You have allowed to thread to go on for 49 posts, with all contributors under the impression that you plan to use the cable for a roving panel on deck, in fact that is also what you said.

That's bad.



This is also misleading. I am nut using single core cable in a professional capacity, i told you that there was some on my current boat, dating back to 1988. I also said that i would not use such cable myself. In fact, as i carry out the updates and minor refit of the boat (which i have only owned for just over a year, the solid cable is being replaced with 2.5mm 3-core flex.

If it performs at home it could then be used a boat. If it did not work at home.....

When I test antifouling I start with small panels - you seem to suggest trialling the whole hull - get real. I tested snubber ropes - on 2m lengths first. Your think any media will pay to test full length snubbers first up. Sadly the real world is different.

Why on earth would I use it on a boat without trialling under controled conditions prior. What a silly idea.

Jonathan

 

[lustyd]

Many people are happy to just install stuff on boats based on following standards. Seems to work for the most part and saves a bunch of time Why wouldn't a solar panel work? I can understand why your cable might not work, which is why people have suggested the proper cable and connectors, but the panel if it's not a dodgy cheap thing from a no-name supplier ought to work, and if not claim under warranty and replace

 

[Neeves]

Many people are happy to just install stuff on boats based on following standards. Seems to work for the most part and saves a bunch of time Why wouldn't a solar panel work? I can understand why your cable might not work, which is why people have suggested the proper cable and connectors, but the panel if it's not a dodgy cheap thing from a no-name supplier ought to work, and if not claim under warranty and replace

You are quite right - Clipper bought a whole bunch of, to specification, tether clips, they 'just' installed them and made sure people used the tethers. Later a man went overboard, the clip failed, the man was retrieved, but dead. The cliips were then independently tested not to specification but in a manner resembling real life (what might have actually happened) and found to be inadequate. If they had been tested prior in a manner in which they might be used - a crew member might still be alive.

Do you want me to list items that failed in the anchor rode....? The bendy shank saga was eventually defined by testing bent shanks for steel quality - or should it just have been ignored?

People take too many things for granted. Things might come from internationally recognised suppliers - makes no difference - a man still died. A well known AF manufacturer made a wonder product, made everything else looked awful - then it was discovered the manufacturer was adding, banned, TBT - directors went to prison. Testing has its place.

I suspect all panels work - but confirming they meet their specification is different.

All shackles, or antifouling work - some shackles meet their specification some do not.; AF does not really have a specification you have to test them and even then some work well in one environment and not another. Some panels seem to have dodgy connections. Some shackles work well if you are tethering a dog, not a yacht - good shackles and bad shackles look, ostensibly, the same.

Panels failing is just an inconvenience - a tether failing is slight more important

Testing costs money, lots, people who test try to reduce costs. Sometimes tests simulating real life don't work, they prove nothing. People who test build up to testing full scale in real life - takes time but saves money and arguably is more meaningful.


I have actually decided to use an accepted cable, not because the single wire is an issue but I cannot be bothered stripping all the insulation off. Maybe I should have thought of this first - but my focus was on 'is there something I don't know'. So I asked the Forum as I thought that is what the forum is for. Maybe when my testing is complete people will view the results with interest - though it will omit pretty girls in bikinis and video. The methodology of how my testing would develop is not relevant and is not set in concrete.

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

If it performs at home it could then be used a boat. If it did not work at home.....

When I test antifouling I start with small panels - you seem to suggest trialling the whole hull - get real. I tested snubber ropes - on 2m lengths first. Your think any media will pay to test full length snubbers first up. Sadly the real world is different.

Why on earth would I use it on a boat without trialling under controled conditions prior. What a silly idea.

Jonathan

Nonsense!

You lied and mislead the forum, i believe that's called trolling ?

Your credibility has now dropped to zero as far as i am concerned.

 

[Neeves]

Nonsense!

You lied and mislead the forum, i believe that's called trolling ?

Your credibility has now dropped to zero as far as i am concerned.

I'm sure you will find many who will agree with you. I have this suspicion you never got over my disagreement with you. I never got the impression my credibility with you was very high anyway so things really have not changed much.

Its a forum

Life is tough Paul, I'll get over it.

Take care

Jonathan

 

[lustyd]

Later a man went overboard, the clip failed, the man was retrieved, but dead. The cliips were then independently tested not to specification but in a manner resembling real life (what might have actually happened) and found to be inadequate.

Terrible example. You're testing something in exactly the manner it's supposed to be used and is used by every other customer. You're not trying new things or breaking new ground, you're installing a panel.

The Clipper incident led to new findings precisely because nobody had thought of the scenario, the clip wasn't substandard or out of spec, or even used in an unconventional manner. The outcome was new advice on how to use the device.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

So he is going to test a solar panel, possibly in a situation it won't be used in, with a bit of bodged up wiring. So when it doesn't come up to spec. What will we blame? The Panel, the wiring or where it is sited? What a load of "Round objects"
I refer the honourable gentlemen to # 51!

 

[rogerthebodger]

I'm sure you will find many who will agree with you. I have this suspicion you never got over my disagreement with you. I never got the impression my credibility with you was very high anyway so things really have not changed much.

Its a forum

Life is tough Paul, I'll get over it.

Take care

Jonathan

Totally agree.

I know Paul is also not impressed with my credibility an way of dong things

here are more ways of doing anything in Engineering that the first one you think of some better than others but not alway
There are also various different standards in the world which have slight differences.

Which one should we follow and are they all compulsory if anyone wishes to go to sea without the correct safety equipment that is their choice and its their life thy are risking.

I have an EPIRB that requires a battery change. our safety inspection authority says the new battery must be replaced by one from the original manufacturer who now will bot supply replacement batteries.
So I must throw away a perfectly good and working EPIRB and buy a new one just because the safety authority will not accept the same battery from a different supplier that probability made by the same battery manufacturer anyway

Control and barbarity gone eeeemad

 

[PaulRainbow]

Totally agree.

I know Paul is also not impressed with my credibility an way of dong things

You are mistaken Roger. I have seen, over the years, many pictures of things you have designed and made for your boat and have no doubt you have many skills.

Where i disagree with you is when you try and re-invent the wheel, seemingly just for the sake of it, and come up with something less than round.

It is true, there is often more than one way to do something, but sometimes there is only one correct way.