Water maker

[sailaboutvic]

Well here it goes guys .
Mine is a very simple system there lots of other ways to build a water maker .
You can add all types of complicated stuff .
But as frankly said , "I did it my way "
I used a cat 277 pump driven by a 1.5hp motor .
You can also run these cat pumps of your engine A combination of pully and belt .probably a better way ,then you won't need a Generator to run the motor .

Parts needed
Cat277 or 247 pump , castle pumps in Nottingham
Pressure vessel 40x2.5 tested over 1000psi I used a fiberglass one .....allwatertech.co.uk
40 ins Membrane . desalt U.K.
2 sea cock .... chandlers
1 sea water mesh type filter ....chandlers
2 water filter contains ...eBay
1 jabsco puppy pump .... chandlers
2 water filters 1x 10 micro 1x5 micro ...eBay
2x 2 way valve SS ..... plumbers
1 pressure water valve......eBay
1 pressure. Vacuum Gauge glycerin-filled .......eBay
HP pipe and connection . hydraulic company .
Good quality water pipe .. diy
SS fitting .
Hose clips ....diy
Odd and ends

As you can see by my bad drawing .( nearly as good as my writing )
Sea water flow first through a wire filter then the puppy pump before entering a two way valve ,
The two way valve has a second pipe which comes from the water tank .
The third pipe which at different times carry both sea water and fresh product.Water goes to first the 10 micro filter then the 5 micro filter .
From there there go to the HP pump , in this case a cat 277.
Are you still with me ?

Up to this point you can use any good quality pipe , I used the reinforced type .
From this point you going to need HP pipe with SS fitting , I had all these made up at a company that made pipe from diggers and cranes .
HP pipe then goes into the bottom end of the HP vessel which houses the membrane,
Also at the bottom of the vessel there another fitting , this will carry your fresh water . A pipe is lead to my tank it also goes through a 2 way valve , this is where I can test the water before filling the tanks
The top of the vessel is fitted with a pressure valve and a vacuum gauge , a pipe is lead from the pressure valve which carries the brine water back out side .

Using this system I can get s much as 80/90 LPH depending on water temperature.
My TDS so far after 15 months used is 120 , you can buy a cheap TDS meters off eBay .
You will notice that the black HP pipe goes around it self a few times , this stop a lot of the vibrations, although you can buy a valve to help with the vibrations but there about 140 pounds .
I also wrap foam in leather around the HP pipe to stop it rubbing on it self .
I know one person who used a pressure washer pump , off is inverter and he says it works find , but he has to replace it some time twice a season .
I still yet to give it a try in case my Gen stop working .
Problem with pressure washer pump is they not made to work non stop .

I hoped I cover every thing , no doubts I be editing it when I find my spelling mistake .
Lots of stuff on the internet if you can't understand my drawing .
How much did it cost ? About £1000 give or take a few pounds , the cat pump is what cost the most .

 

[BurnitBlue]

Many thousand thanks for the article Vic. I have just posted an impatient request on the other thread for you to get started. just amended it to point here.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I also now consider a water maker a must these days in Greece. The water tap in the fisherman's harbour in Preveza is fed by a mile of exposed black pipe so the water comes out so hot it is impossible to drink it same day. It is also as a result of the heat but not actually boiling means that it is probably bug ridden. Many other taps, like the one by the church in Vonitsa is the same

Getting excited about starting to build one of my own.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I also now consider a water maker a must these days in Greece. The water tap in the fisherman's harbour in Preveza is fed by a mile of exposed black pipe so the water comes out so hot it is impossible to drink it same day. It is also as a result of the heat but not actually boiling means that it is probably bug ridden. Many other taps, like the one by the church in Vonitsa is the same

Getting excited about starting to build one of my own.

We have used that water in years gone by , but just to do the washing of clothes.
Ionian yard got ok water ,

You may have to read the article a few times to get the drift , my posting not the easiest to read as I sure you know
There a few of us here who have a similar water maker , Geen and chris Jones for two , and they work well ,
. And very good water , better then bottle water .
If you don't understand some thing just say .
I sure other will be along soon with their input , the more the merrier
By the way I fitted mine just under the V berth in the front and as you see the vessel up right on the head wall .

Edit
A guy call Jim , I think it sailfish marine at times have second hand once , they go for around 3.5/4K and they 12v but you really need to be careful , unlike when you build your own every thing is off the self , membrane are standard , so they a lot cheaper to buy ,
Not so when you buy the purpose build once and it you have a pump go it can cost you an arm and a leg .
Where you can buy all the parts for the cat pumps .
Plus you still have to do the same fitting on the boat as I did . and buy new filters .
Plus they give you about 25/30 LPH where we getting three times the amount .
But if you got the cash and don't want to bother building one it's a option .

 

[sailaboutvic]

Please guys lets for once not turn this thread into one of them , water makers are a waste of money , how much water you can buy for the price of a water maker thread .
Its an information thread . To help them who interested .
Please appreciate what takes some ten mins to write the opening posting took me over a hour and a half .
Let others enjoy .

 

[AndrewB]

[deleted]

 

[Heckler]

Well here it goes guys .
Mine is a very simple system there lots of other ways to build a water maker .
You can add all types of complicated stuff .
But as frankly said , "I did it my way "
I used a cat 277 pump driven by a 1.5hp motor .
You can also run these cat pumps of your engine A combination of pully and belt .probably a better way ,then you won't need a Generator to run the motor .

Parts needed
Cat277 or 247 pump , castle pumps in Nottingham
Pressure vessel 40x2.5 tested over 1000psi I used a fiberglass one .....allwatertech.co.uk
40 ins Membrane . desalt U.K.
2 sea cock .... chandlers
1 sea water mesh type filter ....chandlers
2 water filter contains ...eBay
1 jabsco puppy pump .... chandlers
2 water filters 1x 10 micro 1x5 micro ...eBay
2x 2 way valve SS ..... plumbers
1 pressure water valve......eBay
1 pressure. Vacuum Gauge glycerin-filled .......eBay
HP pipe and connection . hydraulic company .
Good quality water pipe .. diy
SS fitting .
Hose clips ....diy
Odd and ends

As you can see by my bad drawing .( nearly as good as my writing )
Sea water flow first through a wire filter then the puppy pump before entering a two way valve ,
The two way valve has a second pipe which comes from the water tank .
The third pipe which at different times carry both sea water and fresh product.Water goes to first the 10 micro filter then the 5 micro filter .
From there there go to the HP pump , in this case a cat 277.
Are you still with me ?

Up to this point you can use any good quality pipe , I used the reinforced type .
From this point you going to need HP pipe with SS fitting , I had all these made up at a company that made pipe from diggers and cranes .
HP pipe then goes into the bottom end of the HP vessel which houses the membrane,
Also at the bottom of the vessel there another fitting , this will carry your fresh water . A pipe is lead to my tank it also goes through a 2 way valve , this is where I can test the water before filling the tanks
The top of the vessel is fitted with a pressure valve and a vacuum gauge , a pipe is lead from the pressure valve which carries the brine water back out side .

Using this system I can get s much as 80/90 LPH depending on water temperature.
My TDS so far after 15 months used is 120 , you can buy a cheap TDS meters off eBay .
You will notice that the black HP pipe goes around it self a few times , this stop a lot of the vibrations, although you can buy a valve to help with the vibrations but there about 140 pounds .
I also wrap foam in leather around the HP pipe to stop it rubbing on it self .
I know one person who used a pressure washer pump , off is inverter and he says it works find , but he has to replace it some time twice a season .
I still yet to give it a try in case my Gen stop working .
Problem with pressure washer pump is they not made to work non stop .

I hoped I cover every thing , no doubts I be editing it when I find my spelling mistake .
Lots of stuff on the internet if you can't understand my drawing .
How much did it cost ? About £1000 give or take a few pounds , the cat pump is what cost the most .

The ones I worked on had the HP going to the connection where you say, the other connection at the same end had a needle valve on a tee with the outlet to the sea. So start off with that open then close it slowly so that the high pressure built up against the membrane until the water started going through the membrane and the produced clean water came out of the other end. The needle valve allowed the optimum pressure against the membrane end and the excess salt water washed the "filtered" salt off that end of the membrane and dumped it out with the excess sea water through the tee.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The ones I worked on had the HP going to the connection where you say, the other connection at the same end had a needle valve on a tee with the outlet to the sea. So start off with that open then close it slowly so that the high pressure built up against the membrane until the water started going through the membrane and the produced clean water came out of the other end. The needle valve allowed the optimum pressure against the membrane end and the excess salt water washed the "filtered" salt off that end of the membrane and dumped it out with the excess sea water through the tee.

Yea your right stu .
the pressure valve on the top you adjust to 800 psi this causes the water molecule to push through the membrane that comes out the pipe at the bottom of the vessel , this is your product water , the rest comes out pass the pressure valve or has you right,y called it Needle valve and go back out to sea , to help keep the sea level up so we don't go aground .
You could fit the needle valve and the HP both at the same end ,
but as I fitted mine vessel up right I decided to do it that way ,
a lot of vessel are horizontal. I could find the space to fit mine that way .
I didn't want to go into too much details , through I wrote enough to be getting on with ,
There things like fresh water flush after each time water is made and off cause pickling the system when it not being used when the time comes . If people are interested

 

[sailaboutvic]

As I said mine is very simple, for example you could add a gauge on the filter which will tell you when you filters are getting dirty or add a water meter gauge to show you How much water your makes ,
I just take the opinion there more there is the more to go wrong and the more places you going to have to check when the system is sucking in air .

 

[rustybarge]

Yea your right stu .
the pressure valve on the top you adjust to 800 psi this causes the water molecule to push through the membrane that comes out the pipe at the bottom of the vessel , this is your product water , the rest comes out pass the pressure valve or has you right,y called it Needle valve and go back out to sea , to help keep the sea level up so we don't go aground .
You could fit the needle valve and the HP both at the same end ,
but as I fitted mine vessel up right I decided to do it that way ,
a lot of vessel are horizontal. I could find the space to fit mine that way .
I didn't want to go into too much details , through I wrote enough to be getting on with ,
There things like fresh water flush after each time water is made and off cause pickling the system when it not being used when the time comes . If people are interested

Congrats on a really simple and efficient system. Please excuse my really basic questions as I'm not familiar with watermakers.

What make of needle valve did you use and what is the diameter of the hp hose you used ?

How did you connect the 1.5hp motor to the Cat 277 pump? Is there a common type of linkage?

Is your motor DC or AC, and what make of motor did you use?

TIA.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Congrats on a really simple and efficient system. Please excuse my really basic questions as I'm not familiar with watermakers.

What make of needle valve did you use and what is the diameter of the hp hose you used ?

How did you connect the 1.5hp motor to the Cat 277 pump? Is there a common type of linkage?

Is your motor DC or AC, and what make of motor did you use?

TIA.

The pressure needle valve was an 1/2 SS brought off eBay .

you can buy a kit from cat to fit their pump and will connection , motor to the pump .

The motor we use is a 1.5 hp 230 50 hz single phases 2 pole motor we run that off our generator.
It uses around 11 amps at 230vac
The motor need to run around 1600 RPM although cat spec say around 1700RPM

But as I said I do know someone who uses a pressure wash pump off an inverter but you would need a big batteries bank plus you may have to keep a spare pump in stock for when the old one packs up ,
Might be able to give more info on this over the winter , has I plain to give it a go .

The fitting determine the size of HP pipe you can use
pump fitting I think are are 3/8 so the pipe you would use would be one that fit that fitting I think the OD of our is about 12 mm

Hope that helps a bit

 

[crisjones]

A good overview from Vic and obviously a good result.

I built and fitted our watermaker about 8 years ago along much the same lines as Vic so here is a bit more advice for anyone considering building their own.

The pictures (hope it worked OK) show the control panel with various switches, gauges, flow meter and valves, if you can read the labels in the picture it should be self explanatory. Other picture shows the electric motor, Cat pump, low pressure water puppy pump and inlet strainer. This lot is located under the floor in our workshop cabin. The membranes are not shown but are located horizontally behind the control panel. The pdf file shows the system diagram, not totally accurate since membranes are plumbed in series not parallel as shown in the diagram.

I used the Cat Pump and 1.5hp electric motor, the Cat pump is a very robust bit of kit and is used by many commercial watermaker builders. You can get all the spares you need to do a full rebuild of the pump if you have to but our pump has worked faultlessly for 8 years with only routine oil changes. Pressure washer pumps have been used by others but I think it is asking for trouble not to use a pump that is clearly up to the task.

Consider how you are going to power the pump, Vic had an easy decision since he already had a 5kw generator on the boat so a 240V electric motor was the obvious choice. Don't forget that the motor needs quite a large start-up current that may be too much for some smaller generators, you probably need at least 3.5kw to be safe. I have a 2.6kw kipor generator and that will not start the watermaker motor but our 3.5kW Victron inverter will start it OK so once it is running I plug in the Kipor and it will then run it fine.
You will need large battery bank if you want to run the unit from your house bank via an inverter, typical current draw at 12V is around 240A. I have extra alternator on our stbd engine that puts out about 200A so I do run the watermaker when using this engine so actual battery drain is only around 40A.
Driving the pump from the main engine using an electromagnetic clutch is a good choice but you will need to design and manufacture a robust mounting bracket and you will need dual V belts to drive the pump so this option does involve a good bit of work and probably extra plumbing runs. This is probably the most reliable method of driving the pump and if I was fitting ours again I would probably choose this method rather than the 240V motor - just to be clear our electric drive system has been very reliable and the only failure has been one start/run capacitor on the electric motor, however the alternators are running at close to max output and so run very hot that cannot be good for them in the long term. I tend to run the watermaker for 40-60mins max to avoid too much overheating.

Vic used standard hydraulic hose and swaged fittings but I used high pressure nylon tube designed for hydraulic steering systems with a pressure rating of about 2500 psi so well above the 800 psi of the watermaker. The nylon tube uses heavy duty compression fittings with olives (like domestic water pipe fittings) that you can easily install yourself so it makes it very easy to install the high pressure pipe and cut it to the exact lengths required. ASAP supplies are a good source for this nylon tube.

I have a flow meter to measure product water output and I think it is well worth fitting one to monitor what is going on, I also have a pressure gauge to measure pump inlet pressure to give a warning if the filters are becoming blocked. We can go all summer on one set of 20 and 5 micron filters without any problems so maybe this is not a big issue unless you have to use the watermaker in dirty water.

Vic only has one membrane but the Cat pump is a fixed output pump so he is pressurising all the flow to 800psi but not really using all that high pressure seawater to produce product water. The output from the Cat pump is enough to supply 2 x 40" membranes and 1 x 20" membrane giving a product water output of about 180 ltrs per hour rather than the 80 lph that Vic gets from his one membrane and the energy consumption is exactly the same in both systems. I would say that you should use at least 2 x 40" membranes if you are going to use the Cat pump to maximise efficiency and minimise run time. I know there is extra cost in another membrane and pressure vessel and that may be an issue for some, you could always add another membrane later if money is tight. I think Vic is considering adding another membrane to his system. I get around 150 - 160 lph from 2 x 40" membranes.

I used the Cat pressure regulating valve in our system but it is quite expensive so using a standard valve like Vic is a good option although it may be noisier than the Cat valve.

The overall build and install of a DIY watermaker is well within the scope of a reasonably competent engineer and will save a huge amount of money when compared to the commercial offerings. You also know exactly what is installed and how it works. In 8 years the only failure has been the start run capacitor so I am very happy. Most commercial systems have lots of bells and whistles to make them idiot proof and easy to operate but they fail very frequently. People with commercial units are always complaining about them or waiting for a technician or parts to repair it.

 

[sailaboutvic]

A good overview from Vic and obviously a good result.

I built and fitted our watermaker about 8 years ago along much the same lines as Vic so here is a bit more advice for anyone considering building their own.

The pictures (hope it worked OK) show the control panel with various switches, gauges, flow meter and valves, if you can read the labels in the picture it should be self explanatory. Other picture shows the electric motor, Cat pump, low pressure water puppy pump and inlet strainer. This lot is located under the floor in our workshop cabin. The membranes are not shown but are located horizontally behind the control panel. The pdf file shows the system diagram, not totally accurate since membranes are plumbed in series not parallel as shown in the diagram.

I used the Cat Pump and 1.5hp electric motor, the Cat pump is a very robust bit of kit and is used by many commercial watermaker builders. You can get all the spares you need to do a full rebuild of the pump if you have to but our pump has worked faultlessly for 8 years with only routine oil changes. Pressure washer pumps have been used by others but I think it is asking for trouble not to use a pump that is clearly up to the task.

Consider how you are going to power the pump, Vic had an easy decision since he already had a 5kw generator on the boat so a 240V electric motor was the obvious choice. Don't forget that the motor needs quite a large start-up current that may be too much for some smaller generators, you probably need at least 3.5kw to be safe. I have a 2.6kw kipor generator and that will not start the watermaker motor but our 3.5kW Victron inverter will start it OK so once it is running I plug in the Kipor and it will then run it fine.
You will need large battery bank if you want to run the unit from your house bank via an inverter, typical current draw at 12V is around 240A. I have extra alternator on our stbd engine that puts out about 200A so I do run the watermaker when using this engine so actual battery drain is only around 40A.
Driving the pump from the main engine using an electromagnetic clutch is a good choice but you will need to design and manufacture a robust mounting bracket and you will need dual V belts to drive the pump so this option does involve a good bit of work and probably extra plumbing runs. This is probably the most reliable method of driving the pump and if I was fitting ours again I would probably choose this method rather than the 240V motor - just to be clear our electric drive system has been very reliable and the only failure has been one start/run capacitor on the electric motor, however the alternators are running at close to max output and so run very hot that cannot be good for them in the long term. I tend to run the watermaker for 40-60mins max to avoid too much overheating.

Vic used standard hydraulic hose and swaged fittings but I used high pressure nylon tube designed for hydraulic steering systems with a pressure rating of about 2500 psi so well above the 800 psi of the watermaker. The nylon tube uses heavy duty compression fittings with olives (like domestic water pipe fittings) that you can easily install yourself so it makes it very easy to install the high pressure pipe and cut it to the exact lengths required. ASAP supplies are a good source for this nylon tube.

I have a flow meter to measure product water output and I think it is well worth fitting one to monitor what is going on, I also have a pressure gauge to measure pump inlet pressure to give a warning if the filters are becoming blocked. We can go all summer on one set of 20 and 5 micron filters without any problems so maybe this is not a big issue unless you have to use the watermaker in dirty water.

Vic only has one membrane but the Cat pump is a fixed output pump so he is pressurising all the flow to 800psi but not really using all that high pressure seawater to produce product water. The output from the Cat pump is enough to supply 2 x 40" membranes and 1 x 20" membrane giving a product water output of about 180 ltrs per hour rather than the 80 lph that Vic gets from his one membrane and the energy consumption is exactly the same in both systems. I would say that you should use at least 2 x 40" membranes if you are going to use the Cat pump to maximise efficiency and minimise run time. I know there is extra cost in another membrane and pressure vessel and that may be an issue for some, you could always add another membrane later if money is tight. I think Vic is considering adding another membrane to his system. I get around 150 - 160 lph from 2 x 40" membranes.

I used the Cat pressure regulating valve in our system but it is quite expensive so using a standard valve like Vic is a good option although it may be noisier than the Cat valve.

The overall build and install of a DIY watermaker is well within the scope of a reasonably competent engineer and will save a huge amount of money when compared to the commercial offerings. You also know exactly what is installed and how it works. In 8 years the only failure has been the start run capacitor so I am very happy. Most commercial systems have lots of bells and whistles to make them idiot proof and easy to operate but they fail very frequently. People with commercial units are always complaining about them or waiting for a technician or parts to repair it.

Great stuff Chris , I was hoping you came alone and gave your input .

 

[Zing]

I remember reading that when designing a watermaker you need to size the pump output to be very much higher than the capacity of the membranes so as to ensure a high flow on the sea water side of the membranes as it is that high flow, which helps keep them free from blockages of biological growths. What is the guidance on this?

 

[crisjones]

Zing, have a look here http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...seps/pdfs/noreg/609-00377.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc at the technical data for the membranes.

Basically you get around 8% product water from the seawater pumped by the pump, so your Cat Pump needs to pump around 2000 lph of seawater at 800psi to give you 160lph of fresh water. In practice we get a bit more than that but this is taken from Dow's data sheets

 

[Zing]

Thanks

 

[BurnitBlue]

I have just realised that I have never knowingly tasted water from a water maker. After passing through a membrane does it taste a bit like distilled water with no additives. Can it be carbonated with bubbles or added to ouzo. Can you notice the difference when you leave the boat and drink tap water. All the above is just two questions really. How does it taste, and is it healthy?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I have just realised that I have never knowingly tasted water from a water maker. After passing through a membrane does it taste a bit like distilled water with no additives. Can it be carbonated with bubbles or added to ouzo. Can you notice the difference when you leave the boat and drink tap water. All the above is just two questions really. How does it taste, and is it healthy?

It taste better then any bottle water you can buy .
I sure Chris will say the same , visitor always comment how nice the water taste and are surprise when we tell them we make it .
If you want to mix it with ouzo go ahead but what a waste of good drinking water to mix with some thing then horrible
World health organization say water under 1000 is not great but useabie below 500 is good we test our every week and it been 120 for the last 7 months , now and then I tested tap water in Greece I seen it as high as 400 in places .
At 500 we be looking at changing our membrane

 

[BurnitBlue]

It taste better then any bottle water you can buy .
I sure Chris will say the same , visitor always comment how nice the water taste and are surprise when we tell them we make it .
If you want to mix it with ouzo go ahead but what a waste of good drinking water to mix with some thing then horrible
World health organization say water under 1000 is not great but useabie below 500 is good we test our every week and it been 120 for the last 7 months , now and then I tested tap water in Greece I seen it as high as 400 in places .
At 500 we be looking at changing our membrane

Thanks Vic. Just going through the parts I need to see what I can source in Sweden For a head start before I travel to Greece

 

[sailaboutvic]

What we do is just after topping up out tanks ,
we have a few 2 lits bottles and we fill them up to use as drinking water rather then use what in the tank .
Never been happy with useing tank water for drinking straight .