Old Forge Pub

[Robert Wilson]

A good/viable pub is only as good as it's landlord - no matter where it is, or how much "State money" is thrown at it.
I've managed to get there, but I wish it well., but judging from comments herein and my own meagre knowledge of the saga I am fearful for the project.

 

[Quandary]

I resent being accused of bigotry for merely mentioning that the seller of the pub came from outwith the area and apparently intends to leave as soon as he has pocketed his payout. This contrasts with the previous owners who stayed and invested their money in another business there. I do have the suspicion that a person with local connections and knowledge is likely to be more sensitive to the needs and desires of a community, in this case the offering by the former owners was much more attuned to my needs and desires than that from the current landlord with a consequence that I stopped visiting despite the enjoyment experienced there in the past.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I resent being accused of bigotry ...

You are not being accused of being a bigot. It is irrelevant what nationality the owner is or what the owner does with the proceeds of the sale.

Do you know the personal circumstances of the current owner, why he bought the business, why he thought his model was of benefit to him, why it he decided that it was time to sell, why he is moving on? I doubt you do but his nationality is what you choose to highlight. He has bought, run and is now selling on a business and moving on. A perfectly legitimate thing to do that should not warrant criticism in itself. Sure, his business model can be critiqued as not being relevant to the area and customer base, but surely not his right to sell and move on with the proceeds.

 

[Quandary]

Can't believe it is ten years since I encountered him and I must say I did not take to him or his reorganised business, I concluded on being told he was Belgian that he might be a bit out of his depth in Knoydart. I do know that despite his appeal to BoB he did manage to make a number of his neighbours less happy. I am a blow-in myself but instead of trying to alter my neighbours or impose myself on them, decided to adapt to my adopted location and found it an enjoyable experience.
It is strange times here when you are no longer allowed to refer to the nationality of anyone, extreme political correctness surely has to stop sometime.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Can't believe it is ten years since I encountered him and I must say I did not take to him or his reorganised business, I concluded on being told he was Belgian that he might be a bit out of his depth in Knoydart. I do know that despite his appeal to BoB he did manage to make a number of his neighbours less happy. I am a blow-in myself but instead of trying to alter my neighbours or impose myself on them, decided to adapt to my adopted location and found it an enjoyable experience.
It is strange times here when you are no longer allowed to refer to the nationality of anyone, extreme political correctness surely has to stop sometime.

You are allowed, as I am pretty sure there are no restrictions around this, and I will not stop criticising irrelevant arguments (that I am interested in) that highlight identity instead of the issue. You just don't like the criticism that highlights the irrelevance of his nationality to the damage he has done. You think my criticism is PC but its about the situation, what the community needs. The current owner's business did not appeal to me, it would not be what I would look for in a remote community, preferring pub style socialising over fine dining.

Take the Povisen's as an example, who are the largest private land owners in Scotland. They have a policy that is trying to restore land that they own which has been damaged by sheep and deer and other over use activities. Then there is the largest private land owner in Scotland, who has an active programme of restoration underway and a positive community ownership programme. The Duke of Buccleuch, a more tradition type of landowner is on record as supporting a situation where it is "better to be owned by a kind-hearted landowner than a stoney-hearted bank manager", when it comes to community ownership.

The point I am trying to make, is that all these challenges are best served by understanding the arguments and needs of community.

I apologise to you Quandary, for any inference that you are a bigot. It is not something that I would recognise of you, or feel the need to personally accuse you of being. I do not think you are a bigot.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Content deleted

I think its not the concept its the sum. A pub in Bristol would be worth about 750K but then my house is maybe 400k. I am pretty sure house prices up by mallaig are a tad less and about 200k so prorata the pub should be of the order of 400k at best, and in such a remote spot away from mallaig not even that.

Seem the present incumbent is miking it

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I think its not the concept its the sum. A pub in Bristol would be worth about 750K but then my house is maybe 400k. I am pretty sure house prices up by mallaig are a tad less and about 200k so prorata the pub should be of the order of 400k at best, and in such a remote spot away from mallaig not even that.

Seem the present incumbent is miking it

It was offered to the market as potential for a home or a holiday home. Holiday home rentals in that area look to be successful generators of income all year round, in the self catering space. It was offered on the open market. Personally, I am not so sure about milking it, as Covid has caused crazy price increases for homes in rural Scotland. I have no idea if the seller held back for the community to raise funds to buy or had little interest in the property at the offered price.

 

[Mark-1]

It was offered to the market as potential for a home or a holiday home. Holiday home rentals in that area look to be successful generators of income all year round, in the self catering space. It was offered on the open market.

Nope, Holiday homes are C3, they'd never get planning. A local pub has gone through this process and there's no way the OF would meet the criteria for change of use.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Nope, Holiday homes are C3, they'd never get planning. A local pub has gone through this process and there's no way the OF would meet the criteria for change of use.

I wouldn’t be so sure of yourself.

Change of use can be applied for and does happen. Conversion to habitable space is a matter of meeting current building regulations and planning approval. It happens in Scotland regularly from pubs to private homes. Lots of examples.

Change of use to holiday home, or any other class of use, subject to planning approval. Refer to Scottish Government web site.

 

[Mark-1]

I wouldn’t be so sure of yourself.

Change of use can be applied for and does happen. Conversion to habitable space is a matter of meeting current building regulations and planning approval. It happens in Scotland regularly from pubs to private homes. Lots of examples.

Change of use to holiday home, or any other class of use, subject to planning approval. Refer to Scottish Government web site.

I suppose Scottish might be different to England, but in England there is literally no chance a pub at the centre of a small remote community that had been functioning as a pub for decades would get change of use to C3.

Nobody involved has said there was the option of changing use to C3, so I suspect Scotland's Planning Rules match the UKs in this regard.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I don’t understand why you doubt me or have failed to do your own research, all of seconds to find this:-

Former Ayrshire pub to be converted into a private house

Also plenty of English examples as well.

The sales prospectus suggested that the building could be converted to a home subject to planning permission. There may be a link to the prospectus earlier in the thread. I certainly read the prospectus and read that point in the advertising blurb.

This is from a local council:-

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conte...ot:document/Change+Of+Use+And+Use+Classes.pdf

 

[dgadee]

I think its not the concept its the sum. A pub in Bristol would be worth about 750K but then my house is maybe 400k. I am pretty sure house prices up by mallaig are a tad less and about 200k so prorata the pub should be of the order of 400k at best, and in such a remote spot away from mallaig not even that.

Seem the present incumbent is miking it

I looked at house price sales for that part of the world (public information in Scotland) and was initially surprised by the cost of housing, but then I thought back to comments made by locals in Lochinver. They said that people from down south would come up, buy a croft or use planning consultants to get a house built, and then after a few years would go back down south (for the grandchildren perhaps). So it's not correct to think that these areas are necessarily cheap to buy property in. Competition for housing is there. And usually the locals lose out.

 

[Mark-1]

I don’t understand why you doubt me or have failed to do your own research, all of seconds to find this:-

Former Ayrshire pub to be converted into a private house

Also plenty of English examples as well.

The sales prospectus suggested that the building could be converted to a home subject to planning permission. There may be a link to the prospectus earlier in the thread. I certainly read the prospectus and read that point in the advertising blurb.

This is from a local council:-

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/factsheet/2018/08/fife-council/documents/change-of-use-and-use-classes/change-of-use-and-use-classes/govscot:document/Change+Of+Use+And+Use+Classes.pdf

Can you quote the specific words you're referencing from the last link, and from the prospectus, please.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Check out this Pub for sale on Rightmove

Key features
Goodwill value and inventory by separate negotiationAtmospheric and remote rural locationCommercial premises currently operating as a restaurant and bar with capacity for 65 diners with attached cottage comprising living room /bedroom and en-suite bathroomPotentially suitable for conversion into an extensive family home (subject to obtaining the necessary permissions and consents)Beach front property with nearby pier6 moorings (private lease arrangement)Registered Helipad on sitePanoramic views Plethora of wildlife in the local areaIdeal setting for the outdoor enthusiast with fabulous walks and watersports to be enjoyed from the property

From the council link

Sui Generis
Use as a public house.
Planning permission required for change of use to any other class.

I am not responding to any more of your lame questions or points on this subject.

 

[Mark-1]

Check out this Pub for sale on Rightmove



From the council link



I am not responding to any more of your lame questions or points on this subject.

I don't think any of that means what you think it means!

...but yeah, we've both said what we think so we can probably stop discussing the likelihood of a change of use from A4 to C3 now.

 

[awol]

I have just read this thread and my jaw has dropped to the floor.
I cannot believe that this pub should receive public money to fund it anymore than I should receive public money for maintaining my business. The Scottish Government have lost all common sense and reason. Next, someone will tell me that they are providing funding for new sailing yachts whose crew can then visit the pub.

They may not be funding my boat but they are funding my travel to and from the boat between Edinburgh and wherever I left it - places like Oban, Banavie, Stornoway (apart from the ferry) and its home mooring on the Clyde. Big advantage over car is it allows me to visit pubs.

 

[Mark-1]

Just to be clear I'm not objecting to public money being used to buy a community hub for a remote community, if required.

I'm just surprised public money *is* required in this case, and I'd be interested to know why it is.

 

[dgadee]

Just to be clear I'm not objecting to public money being used to buy a community hub for a remote community, if required.

I'm just surprised public money *is* required in this case, and I'd be interested to know why it is.

Rural depopulation is one reason. It's a common enough problem. Travelling across Spain by rail you can barely see a house over many stretches of countryside. See Nobody lives here! Rural depopulation in the EU and citizen engagement in “emptied Spain” • Eyes on Europe

Of course, some prefer "wild areas" to be population free. But that's not my view.

 

[steve yates]

The Nationality of the current owner is irrelevant. Its up for sale, the community has an opportunity to buy it. Whether public funds should be used for this sort of thing strikes at the heart of the issue: owners that have destroyed communities through lack of investment. Maybe government land grabs and asset repatriations at a loss tot he owner is better solution, or maybe not.

I'm not sure this was anything like the case here, I have gone to the old forge since I was 15 and always thought it was a great pub and always had a good time. I was looking forward to going back on a boat as I was always afoot prviously, but it was quite a let down. No atmosphere, I had a chat with the landlord, and yes, I too thought he was an arrogant twat.

This was nowt to do with investment, and all to do with a rubbish landlord at odds with his local community, they were not his market as far as he was concerned, yachties and shooters were.

It is operfectly possible to be a gastro pub and a local pub, he only wanted to be the former.

 

[steve yates]

I think its not the concept its the sum. A pub in Bristol would be worth about 750K but then my house is maybe 400k. I am pretty sure house prices up by mallaig are a tad less and about 200k so prorata the pub should be of the order of 400k at best, and in such a remote spot away from mallaig not even that.

Seem the present incumbent is miking it

House prices in Mallaig bear no relation to house prices in knoydart, most of mallaig is ex council houses, even a run down old croft house in knoydart will be worth far more than one of them now, which is a sorry state of afairs in itself. If the old forge was turned into a home, it would easily sell for close to half a million with that position and outlook, so the property value itself has to be considered in the valuation.