Seatalk to Seatalk ng home made adapter

[jrudge]

On the boat with new toys ( st70 auto helm display )

Assumed it would chat to the auto helm via the Seatalk ng bus but no. The existing head is a 6001 and I need and adapter cable as above.

I can head to Palma and buy one but I have both cable types and given the Raymarine part is only £15 there is clearly nothing clever going on

Does anyone know the wiring to make a home made one please ?

 

[Hurricane]

I would be interested to see if that is correct.
I thought that Seatalk NG was, essentially NMEA 2000 (Ethernet with posh connectors).
The old head you have has the old Seatalk 3 wire system - 2 power and one data wire.

I wouldn't think that Seatalk NG could connect to the old Seatalk.
But - if I'm wrong - I'd like to know.

 

[jfm]

I agree hurricane apart from your Ethernet comment. Seatalk ng is indeed n2k with annoying proprietary connectors ( the reason I abandoned Raym, in case they're listening). It's not Ethernet. Seatalk and seatalk ng are chalk and cheese so won't talk together even if you bodge a connection (ng is 4 core + shield; seatalk is 3 and I don't know about shield).
Forget it jrudge, basically!

 

[jrudge]

just written and lost long reply.
Short version. It will work as Seatalk ng has a Seatalk 1 pin that talks to compatible instruments the cable is hence not doing the conversion just allowing as ng connector to talk to Seatalk 1

Will update tomorrow

 

[markc]

This is what I have to interface new Raymarine Axiom stuff with the older autopilot etc - it's an active adaptor, rather than a passive one apparently (I'm no expert!) http://www.cactusnav.com/raymarine-seatalk-seatalk-adapter-p-11499.html

 

[Hurricane]

I agree hurricane apart from your Ethernet comment. Seatalk ng is indeed n2k with annoying proprietary connectors ( the reason I abandoned Raym, in case they're listening). It's not Ethernet. Seatalk and seatalk ng are chalk and cheese so won't talk together even if you bodge a connection (ng is 4 core + shield; seatalk is 3 and I don't know about shield).
Forget it jrudge, basically!

OK - happy to be wrong about the Ethernet bit.

 

[jfm]

just written and lost long reply.
Short version. It will work as Seatalk ng has a Seatalk 1 pin that talks to compatible instruments the cable is hence not doing the conversion just allowing as ng connector to talk to Seatalk 1

Will update tomorrow

Thanks. I see yr point. Seatalk ng has a 6th pin in the connectors (one being shield) and a 5th cable core that carries a seatalk classic signal alongside the other cores that di n2k. Clever. So to do your mod you need to find the cable assignment within the 6 pins/5 cores- sorry I don't know
Every day = school day, thanks Jrudge

 

[Shuggy]

Gosh - I wish I had known that when I set off down the electronics replacement route as I may have stayed with Raymarine rather than moving to B&G. Integrating the old ST60s and autopilot was incredibly challenging as I had to resort to buying a SeaTalk to SeaTalk ng converter to squirt into my 2k backbone. Not before I had tried using an ST60 multi and then an Actisense converter to try to extract compatible data from the old electronics. As you say jfm... every day is a school day.

Incidentally, I believe Raymarine are changing their ng connectors to standard NMEA 2k ones this year.

 

[prv]

I thought that Seatalk NG was, essentially NMEA 2000 (Ethernet with posh connectors).

As JFM said, it's not Ethernet. It is in fact CAN bus (specifically, a descendant of SAE J1939) with posh connectors

Seatalk ng has a 6th pin in the connectors (one being shield) and a 5th cable core that carries a seatalk classic signal alongside the other cores that di n2k. Clever.

Not quite as clever as you're imagining, unfortunately. The SeatalkNG connector standard assigns a pin for Seatalk1, but not all cables have it wired and the vast majority of devices don't transmit or receive it. You need something that actually speaks Seatalk1, which in most cases is the active converter linked in post #5. In fact I can't think of any other devices that speak Seatalk1 on a SeatalkNG port, though they may exist. It would make sense for all such ports to be coloured the traditional Seatalk1 data colour yellow, like the one on the converter, though I don't know if that's actually the case.

So to do your mod you need to find the cable assignment within the 6 pins/5 cores- sorry I don't know

The couple of SeatalkNG cables I've cut into used the standard CAN colours of blue and white for data, plus black and red for power. Those cables didn't have the Seatalk1 core so I don't know what colour that would be - ideally yellow would make sense, but either way it will be the one that isn't power and isn't part of the white and blue twisted pair.

Incidentally, I believe Raymarine are changing their ng connectors to standard NMEA 2k ones this year.

The Axiom series of plotters have had standard DeviceNet (aka NMEA2k) connectors since they came out about this time last year.

EDIT: While all the above is correct, I've just looked into the ST70 controller and it is apparently one of those rare devices that speak Seatalk1 on the extra pin - so a dumb cable is indeed all that's required :encouragement:

The manual says it should have come with the correct cable in the box. Are you missing that for some reason?

The problem you'll have with making up an equivalent from a random SeatalkNG cable is that I believe they mostly don't contain the SeatalkNG core. I'm fairly certain standard "spur" (white plug) cables don't. I don't know if backbone cables do, but on further reflection I tend to think they probably don't - it doesn't really make sense for the way you'd convert a network.

So despite having the seemingly correct plugs on hand, I think you'll probably need to buy the £15 cable

Pete

 

[lpdsn]

The couple of SeatalkNG cables I've cut into used the standard CAN colours of blue and white for data, plus black and red for power. Those cables didn't have the Seatalk1 core so I don't know what colour that would be - ideally yellow would make sense, but either way it will be the one that isn't power and isn't part of the white and blue twisted pair.

I've a cut, damaged STNG spur cable where the extra wire is yellow, but like you I understand it is a bit hit and miss whether it is there.

 

[prv]

I've a cut, damaged STNG spur cable where the extra wire is yellow, but like you I understand it is a bit hit and miss whether it is there.

As I think more about it I actually now can't think of a reason why any standard SeatallkNG cable would contain a Seatalk1 core.

JFM's assumption that STng carries ST1 all round the network on an additional core alongside the N2k stuff (which was my initial assumption a few years ago too) is not really accurate at all. Really the use of the ST1 pin in the plug is much more limited - it just allows a couple of specific devices like the ST70 to use one socket for either kind of communication, depending on what type of cable is plugged in. All cables have the power cores connected, then the standard STng ones (spur and backbone) have the blue and white CAN pair, and the adapter cables (STng plug to flat ST1) have the yellow ST1 core.

The Raymarine STng guide never shows ST1 being connected in any other way, and specifically says not to try plugging the adapter cable into an STng tee elsewhere on the network.

Pete

 

[jfm]

Pete, thanks for that further/better detail.
All reconfirms why I went right off raym after I did one boat fully in their combo of st1, stng, Ethernet, and nmea 183 ( that boat being my squad 58 in 2009). It was a horrible expensive installation and I was hostage to raym's proprietary connectors which can cause delay in sourcing (if you're installing and want a certain cable right now that nobody stocks) as well as money wastage.

I'm so much happier to have, in boats since then, just Ethernet and n2k using generic devicenet connectors so I can mix maretron with the base kit which is Garmin in my case. Incidentally in case that sounds like too few baskets to keep my eggs in I have two separate n2k networks = a big main one and a smaller second one with screen, GPS, battery, charger, etc all independent of the main n2k backbone, to give back up on essential nav info. Admittedly an iPhone does that nowadays!

 

[jrudge]

Morning all. On phone with slow internet. Joy.

Anyway update. I have a yellow core.

Soldering iron at the ready and will cut into the Seatalk network now and update you later

 

[jrudge]

Works !

 

[jrudge]

Interesting twist. The bulb says they are the same size as the st60 other than the screws in different places. They are smaller and fall through the hole. Simple jobs and boats

 

[Hurricane]

As JFM said, it's not Ethernet. It is in fact CAN bus (specifically, a descendant of SAE J1939) with posh connectors



Not quite as clever as you're imagining, unfortunately. The SeatalkNG connector standard assigns a pin for Seatalk1, but not all cables have it wired and the vast majority of devices don't transmit or receive it. You need something that actually speaks Seatalk1, which in most cases is the active converter linked in post #5. In fact I can't think of any other devices that speak Seatalk1 on a SeatalkNG port, though they may exist. It would make sense for all such ports to be coloured the traditional Seatalk1 data colour yellow, like the one on the converter, though I don't know if that's actually the case.



The couple of SeatalkNG cables I've cut into used the standard CAN colours of blue and white for data, plus black and red for power. Those cables didn't have the Seatalk1 core so I don't know what colour that would be - ideally yellow would make sense, but either way it will be the one that isn't power and isn't part of the white and blue twisted pair.



The Axiom series of plotters have had standard DeviceNet (aka NMEA2k) connectors since they came out about this time last year.

EDIT: While all the above is correct, I've just looked into the ST70 controller and it is apparently one of those rare devices that speak Seatalk1 on the extra pin - so a dumb cable is indeed all that's required :encouragement:

The manual says it should have come with the correct cable in the box. Are you missing that for some reason?

The problem you'll have with making up an equivalent from a random SeatalkNG cable is that I believe they mostly don't contain the SeatalkNG core. I'm fairly certain standard "spur" (white plug) cables don't. I don't know if backbone cables do, but on further reflection I tend to think they probably don't - it doesn't really make sense for the way you'd convert a network.

So despite having the seemingly correct plugs on hand, I think you'll probably need to buy the £15 cable

Pete

Really interesting - thanks for taking the time to post.

 

[Hurricane]

Pete, thanks for that further/better detail.
All reconfirms why I went right off raym after I did one boat fully in their combo of st1, stng, Ethernet, and nmea 183 ( that boat being my squad 58 in 2009). It was a horrible expensive installation and I was hostage to raym's proprietary connectors which can cause delay in sourcing (if you're installing and want a certain cable right now that nobody stocks) as well as money wastage.

I'm so much happier to have, in boats since then, just Ethernet and n2k using generic devicenet connectors so I can mix maretron with the base kit which is Garmin in my case. Incidentally in case that sounds like too few baskets to keep my eggs in I have two separate n2k networks = a big main one and a smaller second one with screen, GPS, battery, charger, etc all independent of the main n2k backbone, to give back up on essential nav info. Admittedly an iPhone does that nowadays!

Our system is a mashup of different networks - installed 10 years ago around the same time as your SQ58.
Things have moved on since then.
However, if I was re-specifying, the network wouldn't be on the top of my wish list.
Functionality would drive my selection of kit.
For example, the top requirement when I selected my current system was a Glass Bridge system that takes lots of different video feeds - particularly feeding the ships PC to every display.
That isn't everyone's ideal but it has really worked for me.
This is the kind of thing that I would select over having a more modular network.
Although, I do see your point.
NMEA0183 should be dead but it is alive today as it was before NMEA 2000.

 

[jfm]

All new kit has video feed galore hurricane. It wouldn't be a reason for choosing brand A over brand B. Imho!

 

[Freeloader]

The link posted by 'markc' for the Raymarine Seatalk1 to Seatalkng Adapter Kit is what I use also. It interfaces various pieces of legacy Raymarine electronics with later Seatalkng / NMEA2000 equipment and the Volvo EVC system. It seems to work seemlessly, passing data back and forth in both directions.

 

[prv]

All reconfirms why I went right off raym after I did one boat fully in their combo of st1, stng, Ethernet, and nmea 183 ( that boat being my squad 58 in 2009). It was a horrible expensive installation and I was hostage to raym's proprietary connectors which can cause delay in sourcing (if you're installing and want a certain cable right now that nobody stocks) as well as money wastage.

There's no reason now to fit ST1 in a new system, though I guess back in 2009 Raymarine might have had some older products that were still the latest of their line and didn't do STng / N2k.

The STng connectors are quite a nice design, but that doesn't really outweigh the cost (both financial and sourcing convenience) of being non-standard. Especially in a new-build where you have decent access for wiring, their main benefit being small connectors to feed through small holes and conduits. I would never have got DeviceNet plugs through most of the runs on my recent radar, plotter, and autopilot upgrade - I could of course have run bare cable and field-installable plugs, though the latter are rather bulkier than moulded-on ones and it would have taken longer.

Raymarine appear to have come to the same conclusion, having gone for standard DeviceNet on their new range of plotters. It will take many years for the rest of their gear to move over though.

What do Garmin do for ethernet plugs? RJ45 or do they have something proprietary and water-resistant? Raymarine have a proprietary round connector which I prefer over RJ45 on the radar and the plotter on deck, but if I need to add anything else to the network in future I will cut the cable between them (there's a loop of it run through the back of the chart table for the purpose) and fit RJ45s and a third-party semi-rugged switch. I've already fitted RJ45s in a waterproof coupler above the headlining for the mast joint.

NMEA0183 is still alive and well in the commercial world, but I guess it's becoming less common on leisure kit except for VHFs for some reason. I would tend not to think of having an 0183 "network", just that one or two individual devices (if I was determined to use them for other reasons) might need a bit of special wiring and possibly a converter depending on what data is involved.

Pete