Your experiences: Long keelers to windward.

I sail a folksong; a folkboat derivative. She is quite tippy, the leward gunnel is easily awash. However once there, she gets into "her groove" and feels like it would take an awful lot to make her tip further.

It's not concerning at all as the cockpit is narrow, so feet are easily braced, even short a*ses shouldn't have an issue. I also have high coamings so you feel quite enclosed and safe.

Upwind is actually a joy, one in her groove she trucks along with a positive yet light helm. I can lash my tiller slightly to windward and happily leave her to make a cuppa without concern.

Slight downside is she can be quite wet upwind with spray, but a good sprayhood takes most of the burden...
 
she31 said:
So - is it true that classic long keelers with a high ballast ratio and moderate of beam are, as a rule, "tippy" when sailing to windward?

And is it true what they say - initial stability, or lack of, has no bearing on ultimate stability and ultimately -seaworthiness?
.
Click to expand...

Where does "long keeler" come into a discussion of stability or even of ballast ratio? Keel shape doesnt necessarily imply anything in terms of stability even though no practical long keel will put the ballast weight as far from the centre of flotation of the boat as a modern deep finned racer does . So forget the "long keel" bit - what you are really asking about is the comparison between modern wide beamed boats that have to be relatively stiff because the wide hull is unforgiving when well heeled and older style narrow beamed boats with a more balanced hull and which were designed to sail "on their ear".

As a sweeping generalisation the older narrow boats are less stable inverted than the modern wide beamed boats. Personally I dont think that makes them any less seaworthy - after all most deep sea vessels have an AVS of 45 degrees or less - big ships, trawlers, cats etc. Which is why big cats have such an excellent record of seaworthyness despite an AVS usually around 45 deg.

Seaworthyness is about far more than just the AVS. Even issues like crew comfort come into it, but after construction strength the most important factor is the energy required to get to the AVS ie the area under the curve not the max figure itself.
 
Many older boats were designed to sail on their ear to windward. The long overhangs increase the waterline length and make them faster to windward heeled than upright, unlike modern beamy boats. It's nothing to do with the long keel though - Spirits and a few other designs use exactly the same trick with a very narrow chord fin keel and a lead bulb at bottom.

A beamy modern boat has a great deal of form stability - it's on it's way to being a raft with a pointy end - so the boat resists heeling a lot at first but, as the hull starts to get nearer the horizontal so the beam of the hull becomes less significant and the weight of the keel becomes more important. It also sails very inefficiently as you're trying to push all that submerged hull through the water instead of letting it skim over the top. These designs usually have vertical stems and sugar scoop of vertical transom too so there's no effective increase in waterline length when you heel.

The narrow hull of a traditional design with long overhangs means that there's not so much resistance to the initial angle but then, as the keel moves towards the horizontal, so the righting moment increases . They'll often have a greater righting moment than a beamy hull once you get towards a serious angle of heel but the designers would like you to sail them heeled anyway as they go faster that way.
 
wotayottie said:
...As a sweeping generalisation the older narrow boats are less stable inverted than the modern wide beamed boats. Personally I dont think that makes them any less seaworthy...
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IMO being less stable inverted is a big positive, it'll return right side up much quicker.

Another generalisation is that those boats with a wine-glass under water shape will more often than not have an encapsulated keel. Thats a lot less likely to be removed by accident, thus keeping the weight where the righting moment needs it to be. The inversion incidents I can easily recall, Bullimore et al, mostly lost thier keels resulting in the boat being just as happy inverted.

Remember that until fairly recently the Co 32 was used as the yardstick for stability. YM boat reviews would publish the AVS curve for the boat under test compared to that of the Contessa.
 
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Our Vega stiffens up after about 10 degs, when you get to 20 degs, it's time to put a reef in. Seems to carry her way well which improves the tacking experience no end.
 
My long keeler is very stiff. I have a 13 ton lump of lead built into the bottom of the keel. At about 20 degrees the side deck will be underwater. She will go faster with a reef in at that point. 15 degrees heel seems to be optimal for speed to windward in any wind conditions.

in this video, we are slightly overcanvassed and would be faster with a reef in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOtUfrsU82o
 
My Dad had a Halcyon 27, and she usually sailed with the lee gunwhale under. Never went significantly further than that.

I think the point is that a "wine-glass" shaped hull (not necessarily long keel, though most long keel yachts have this form) is designed to lay over when the wind builds a bit. This effectively spills wind, so the rig is more forgiving, and the boat less likely to round up in a gust; it just lies down a little more. Most yachts of that generation didn't have reefing jibs and labour saving reefing systems for mains weren't much in use either, so reducing the sail area was rather more of a task than it tends to be these days.

We were once hit by a squall off the East Coast of Scotland, with a wind-shift. There was no time to reduce sail, but the Halcyon simply lay down a bit, perfectly safely (we were a bit excited, though!)

As far as vanishing stability goes, this behaviour is nothing to do with it. I'd guess - but I am no naval architect - that most yachts exhibiting such behaviour would be intrinsically stable, as they depend entirely on the weight of the keel to keep them upright; there is much less form stability than a fin-keel, so the ballast ratio and centre of bouyancy to centre of mass leverage is what is keeping the boat upright.
 
Our Cutlass 27 would tip over in a puff but would stay that way thereafter as the wind built.

We did not need to reef until we had green water coming into the cockpit over the coamings (gunnels well under water!) and speed was maintained pretty well as well. We just got used to it and stopped noticing it.

Another big benefit, apart from the totally reassuring predictability was that it was completely 'untwitchy' in gusts. It would round up, but only steadily and you could use minimum force to keep her steady (eg a lightweight tiller pilot was adequate). Tracked beautifully.

Not necessarily the quickest boat around (very poor downwind due to limited sail area) but over a distance, very stable and comfortable (for its size).

Those seemed to me, to be the benefits we noticed most of that keel configuration.
 
When SWMBO and I finally got together, her Father had a modern built Nordic Folkboat of the racing variety, so very light as long keels go.

It wasn't tippy in the sense that an eboat is tippy. It didnt move much or suddenly, but when the wind boat it did tip further than say you might expect from a Sonata. Dartmouth 2010 was a good example as we were racing rail to rail with a pair of Sonatas in the big seas that one gets around there. In gusty conditions it was an education to compare two of the better exampekls of the two different forms.

The wine glass shape will go further over without slowing down where as the fin keels really slow down as they heel beyond 15'.

If I understand the OP though, I think we're being asked about how stable that hull shape feels and in a big sea, bowling along hard on the wind at say 20' to the verticle, the folkboat felt rock solid in a way that even the best fin keelers dont.
 
michaelchapman said:
My long keeler is very stiff. I have a 13 ton lump of lead built into the bottom of the keel. At about 20 degrees the side deck will be underwater. She will go faster with a reef in at that point. 15 degrees heel seems to be optimal for speed to windward in any wind conditions.

in this video, we are slightly overcanvassed and would be faster with a reef in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOtUfrsU82o
Click to expand...

She's a beauty! Out of interest, was that really a f6? Hope you find a new custodian of her.
 
The Elizabethan 29 is designed to be sailed on her ear. LWL 20 feet, LOA 29 feet says it all really, you get an extra 4' of LWL when the lee rail goes under. Or as one owner puts it "If you can't see mullet through the cabin window then you're not going fast enough." Goes like a train to windward in an F5, with a reef and the No. 1 jib, but rather wet if there's any sea. The heeling can be ... thigh strengthening, on a windy channel crossing, bracing at 30 degrees in a narrow cockpit for 12 hours on the same tack leaves you walking around like John Wayne the next day. But it's fun and she's a very pretty boat, I wouldn't swap her for a modern one.
 
Class rules mean no reefs on the Folkboat. I confess I never felt like we needed one, although we did once de-power in a seven by way of blowing the kite to smitherines.
 
RobbieW said:
IMO being less stable inverted is a big positive, it'll return right side up much quicker.

Another generalisation is that those boats with a wine-glass under water shape will more often than not have an encapsulated keel. Thats a lot less likely to be removed by accident, thus keeping the weight where the righting moment needs it to be. The inversion incidents I can easily recall, Bullimore et al, mostly lost thier keels resulting in the boat being just as happy inverted.

Remember that until fairly recently the Co 32 was used as the yardstick for stability. YM boat reviews would publish the AVS curve for the boat under test compared to that of the Contessa.
Click to expand...

IMHO, the average leisure yottie does not need to worry too much about inverted stability.
Likewise AVS is a much over-rated number. A log with a nail in it has a lot of AVS, but no stability!
What I'd look for is a decent amount of ballast, and as much draft as you think is OK for your sailing grounds. And a big rig. You can reef when it's windy, but there is no substitute for sail area on light days.
A long keel tends to give more surface area drag than a modern design, so will need a bit more drive in light weather.
Some long keel boats go well to windward, some less so. A long deep keel is probably better than a long shallow keel, but there are good and bad designs of both.
In terms of windward ability, a well proportioned rig is important too.
If you value windward performance, just look at the racing pedigree.
A look at Round the Island results and yardsticks will give a lot of clues about how well a boat goes.

But the best of designs can be spoiled by dead sails or poor gear.
As many of the older designs are masthead rig, they are easily ruined upwind by a baggy roller reefed genoa. A decent No3 might be worthwhile?

Food for Thought?
 
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