YM Ocean questions

Roberto

Roberto

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I would like to try the YM Ocean exam some time next year.
I already have two qualifying passages, by the time of the exam I'll hopefully have done three more.
From the RYA wording, I understand that sextant sights need not be taken during the qualifying passages but may be taken on other occasions.
As I'll have plenty of opportunities, I was wondering if the examinator judgement would be different if:
1. A whole qualifying passage is done solely by astro navigation; say I would take two three daily sights during the whole passage
2. A number of different types of sights are taken (ex star, latitude by polar, lat/long at meridian passage, sun-run-sun, etc say a couple of each), apart from the required compass check.

Is there any interest in providing more sextant work than strictly required or is it "just sail out one day, take a couple of sights, compass check, back to port and do not bother with more" ?



Also, I am rather at ease with mathematics so I will try the examination after having studied by myself, any textbook you have found good for that purpose, meaning with exercises similar to the written assessment and useful material for the oral examination ?

thanks
 
You cannot do enough sights! However, your examiner only has time to check the minimum required, So just submit exactly what the book says. You will be asked sufficient questions to confirm your ability.

It is common these days that ocean passages are completed without sights and it is acceptable to do a short trip to get your sights to demonstrate your ability. Better by far to do them on the trip though.

Try getting an old theory exam paper, it will test you not just on sights but weather, passage planning etc. Then you can measure your ability. Both Tom Cunliffe and Tim Bartlett have written excellent short books on Astro including the extra bits beyond just the sights. I rate them both but maybe thats just me!!!!

Whoever does your exam, remember they are ocean sailors, done it and got T shirt. No bluffing it! They will be genuinely interested in your achievements.

Good luck, hope it all goes well :)
 
Forgot to mention, loadsa people set off on a trip with good intentions. Then it is oh well just off watch, just got to finish my book, oh its my turn to cook, just got to amputate me leg, any excuse to not do sights.

Get on it day one as land dissapears and keep it up!

Dont leave it all till last 11 seconds of trip. AND do not r not use GPS to get DR position, common error, examiners see through it straight away.
 
Roberto

Your examiner will gratefully decline your offer of lots of sights and will require one set of sights only for him to put under the microscope.

So.... take lots of sights over a few days and then present him with the set that you are most pleased with, possibly something 'out of the ordinary' ?

e.g.
a set of star sights using "Selected Stars"

or do a ' forenoon sun - run, noon, run,- afternoon sun ' and present him with a 'cocked hat'
rather than the usual twin sights that they get a bit bored with !

If you are a bibliophile I would add Wilkes and Blewitt to CS's Cunliffe and Bartlet - no single book covers everything...

Agree with CS - use your GPS to check your accuracy by all means but don't use it for your DR.

Good luck.
 
If you want an astro book I found Mary Blewitt's book is best, it explains things simply. I found Ton Cunliffe's book was (purposely?) over complicated and makes it seems hard. I once read an article by him on radar and it was also over complicated.
 
stephenh said:
Agree with CS - use your GPS to check your accuracy by all means but don't use it for your DR.
Click to expand...


As an Examiner what I want to hear is the truth. If you are navigating by GPS then say so. I have seen and passed plenty of candidates who have used GPS and effectively backed up their nav by using astro.

If you have a GPS fix that is a few miles out from your DR, which one is more likely to be more accurate?

The oral exam is more about checking you know what you are doing than anything else.
 
nigelmercier said:
So don't you have to take sights during the exam?
Click to expand...

The 'exam' is an interview conducted on shore so no possibility for taking sights during the exam itself. Don't forget that the exam is not just about navigation. You will also be asked questions about ocean winds, currents and weather plus stuff about planning a voyage, equipment and stores to carry, selection of crew, management of the vessel and anything else that a skipper on an ocean passage needs to think about.

What he has to determine is whether you are fit to be responsible for the lives of other people 1000 miles from land.
 
My exam was conduced by a female examiner............they're not all "he" :D

She was quite obviously a very experienced ocean passage maker. She very quickly put me at ease and we simply talked over a mug of tea about my qualifying passage. Her questions were searching and thorough and pretty-much covered the whole YM Ocean syllabus. She also willingly offered me new information based upon her experience. Prior to the meeting, I had submitted a fairly detailed navigation log including self generated plotting sheets showing DR track and sight fixes taken throughout the passage. This included several, different heading, compass checks. I'd also done the shorebased course so did not need to do the theory paper.

Good luck.
 
Hi Roberto

It is worth noting that if you haven't done the RYA yacht master Ocean shore based course or equivalent you need to do a written exam in addition to the normal oral exam.

I don't have any knowledge of this additional written exam however I have read posts which suggest it's not particularly straight forward. This might be worth researching before you decide to go for it without doing the ocean course.

All the best

Chris
 
capnsensible said:
You cannot do enough sights!.......................

It is common these days that ocean passages are completed without sights and it is acceptable to do a short trip to get your sights to demonstrate your ability. Better by far to do them on the trip though.

.....................................Good luck, hope it all goes well :)
Click to expand...

Apologies for dredging up such an old thread but I have been researching Ocean YM issues.

I have recently been in touch with the RYA to check whether Edinburgh to Copenhagen would be acceptable as a qualifying passage: over 600nms with about 250nms being more than 50nms from the shore.

It had been my intention take as many sights as possible on the trip and plot the progress on one chart but with the crew keeping a GPS based plot on another chart

The answer from the RYA is no, such a route is not in the spirit of the Ocean passage where there is an expectation that one's position be fixed by use of astro nav. It is suggested that there are too many oil rigs on this route that might be used to get a fix by more traditional methods.

An alternative for East of Scotland sailors seeking a 600 nms passage is to head north up the North Sea about as far as Trondheim but there are loads of rigs there too.

And anyway even if I head off for Iceland I can use my GPS anytime I want, who needs to take bearings off rigs?

I'm a bit confused.
 
I still find this emphasis on astro nav very whimsical. Don't worry I expect someone to respond along the lines. "I had 3 GPS on an ocean passage and they all failed. Wasn't it lucky I had my sextant, nautical almanac, sight reduction tables, accurate clock and a shortwave radio to check the accuracy of the clock, as a backup."
 
ytd said:
I still find this emphasis on astro nav very whimsical. Don't worry I expect someone to respond along the lines. "I had 3 GPS on an ocean passage and they all failed. Wasn't it lucky I had my sextant, nautical almanac, sight reduction tables, accurate clock and a shortwave radio to check the accuracy of the clock, as a backup."
Click to expand...

Yes it is an emergency backup, and that is all astro is nowadays, apart from a nice way of amusing yourself on a long passage.

But that doesn't mean it is not needed. And I HAVE had all electronics stop working, more than once. Both occasions were due to excessive quantities of salt water inside the cabin. Both boats were sailed in to port, one without engine as well as electronics.

I'm told lightning can also kill all electronics on board. Never had that, I'm pleased to say.
 
Doh!

I did my ocean theory 5 years ago. Since then I've done a few big trips as mate which I took my sextant along for. I was under the impression that these would not be "qualifying" because although I was doing my nav (for practice) from DR and sun/star sights, no owner or delivery skipper is going to want to turn off the GPS and go with the mate's astro so the mate can get his ocean ticket. I did my sights every day and most nights, but we never changed course because of them. I *thought* I'd have to wait until I had my own boat for that (which I have had for 2 years now but not yet done my intended azores-and-back run to sort this out). On seeing this thread (which I wonder I didn't clock last year) I've re-read the requirements.

Was the YM Ocean qualifying passage being made *entirely* without the use of electronic navigation aids *ever* in there as a requirement or have I just interpreted
Navigational records, completed on board a yacht on passages, out of sight of land showing that the candidate has navigated the yacht without the use of electronic navigational aids
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incorrectly to mean "the whole way" for the past 5 year? Given I've waited this long I might as well invest in a walker log and a wind-up watch...
 
It's a long-established principle of safe navigation - air and marine - that the practitioner entrusted with the safety of a vessel and its people must be able to utilise some viable 'reversionary means' should the primary facilities fail - as they do from time to time - without the enterprise being put to hazard.

The very experienced individuals who, in their collective judgment as a body, advise on the content of the RYA/DoT YM (Ocean) syllabus are clearly well aware that loss of GPS in deep ocean would require a rather more focussed skill-set to 'get 'em home safely' than that which may be needed halfway across the Channel and in sight of the loom of Cherbourg as well as St. Cath's.

There is no compunction to acquire that certification. However, where someone seeks whatever status and esteem may attach to it, it would be well to understand what is sought by those who control its issue and to 'buy into' the ethos. Otherwise, stick to the Dayskipper role...... :rolleyes:

BTW, it is not commonly known that the US astronauts on ill-fated Apollo 13 carried and used a sextant to help establish exactly where/when to initiate an essential 'braking burn'. Without that - and the knowhow - there would most likely have been a 'lost in space' outcome.
 
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oldbilbo said:
It's a long-established principle of safe navigation - air and marine - that the practitioner entrusted with the safety of a vessel and its people must be able to utilise some viable 'reversionary means' should the primary facilities fail - as they do from time to time - without the enterprise being put to hazard.

The very experienced individuals who, in their collective judgment as a body, advise on the content of the RYA/DoT YM (Ocean) syllabus are clearly well aware that loss of GPS in deep ocean would require a rather more focussed skill-set to 'get 'em home safely' than that which may be needed halfway across the Channel and in sight of the loom of Cherbourg as well as St. Cath's.

There is no compunction to acquire that certification. However, where someone seeks whatever status and esteem may attach to it, it would be well to understand what is sought by those who control its issue and to 'buy into' the ethos. Otherwise, stick to the Dayskipper role...... :rolleyes:
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Well said

Those who rant that astro nav is dated and no longer relevant only demonstrate ther own lack of experience and understanding of safe navigation. There is currently no back up to GPS when mid ocean other than a sextant and a little knowledge. Having no means of calculating position other than DR when mid ocean is not an acceptable or safe practice.
 
Remember that a famous member of the Royal Institute of Navigation had to abandon the original Jester because excess water in the cabin had totally ruined his sight reduction tables.

When offered the chance to abandon ship, he felt obliged to take it because without the means to navigate safely, there was no point in trying to repair the damage to the hatch, etc.

If only he had had a self contained GPS in a tupperware box as back up, he might not have lost his boat.
 
TimBennet said:
Remember that a famous member of the Royal Institute of Navigation had to abandon the original Jester because excess water in the cabin had totally ruined his sight reduction tables.

When offered the chance to abandon ship, he felt obliged to take it because without the means to navigate safely, there was no point in trying to repair the damage to the hatch, etc.

If only he had had a self contained GPS in a tupperware box as back up, he might not have lost his boat.
Click to expand...

Aye. The requirement for 'viable reversionary means' still applies. Doesn't matter how you achieve it, so long as it is reliable and independent of whatever may cause the initial failure. :)
 
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