YM Ocean Qualifying Passage

[bbg]

Hardly an ocean passage though

If it meets the qualifying requirements, it should count.

The requirement is for a passage of 600 nm. I can't think of any true "ocean passage" that could be completed in 600 nm. Offshore, yes. Ocean passage, no.

Edit - As I read it, what is required is a "qualifying passage" for YM Ocean, and these are the key requirements:

During the passage a minimum non-stop distance of 600 miles must have been run by the log, the yacht must have been at sea continuously for at least 96 hours and the yacht must have been more than 50 miles from land while sailing a distance of at least 200 miles.

I think the route I proposed is more then 600 miles (but it may depend where you start from and where you finish). The difficulty might be in getting the 200 miles >50 miles from land.

I don't see what, in principle, is wrong with doing a loop if it meets all the requirements. Another possibility which might take one farther from land is down to Rochebonne (off Ile de Ré) and back, going outside the Chaussée de Sein.

 

[SteveSarabande]

It isnt 50 miles offshore for long enough

 

[bbg]

It isnt 50 miles offshore for long enough

You could make a loop down to Rochebonne and back with enough miles >50 miles offshore, pretty easily.

 

[laika]

I don't see what, in principle, is wrong with doing a loop if it meets all the requirements.

Talking of loops, I refer you back to page 2 of this tread
"shortest navigable route" as stated in:
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/training/Web%20Documents/RYA%20Training/Exams/TRA%20Definition%20of%20passage%20-%20candidate.pdf

Of course that probably excludes folding space or no-one would ever get YM Ocean...

 

[AndrewB]

Although there is a "shortest navigable route" stipulation in the rules, this does not imply the shortest navigational route between the origin and final destination, only for the overall passage as planned.

Because Solent -> Corunna is just short, for my YMO qualifier I did Solent -> Corunna via Sisarges Island. This island is about 20 miles west of Corunna and brought the total distance to just over 600 miles. No objection was raised to this.

 

[Uricanejack]

I supose there has to be a line to cross. A minimum to be reached.
Arguing about a trip qualifing by 20 miles or not is pointless.
If it does sail 20 miles the wrong way stop for a pint then set of in the right direction.

I understand a requirement to have crewed for a minimum distance and minimum no trips. But I don't get the requirment to skipper an ofshore passage before you can be qualified.
I had to have a minimum amount of instruction a medical and be able to land before I could fly solo.
I had to have a license before I could take a passenger.
I rode a motorbike without a lisence but I had to get a provisional lisencey.
I needed a real lisence to carry a passenger.
I could drive with a provisional lisence but needed a real liesence to drive alone.
I dove with an instructor until I qualified as a diver.

I know you don't need a lisence to sail a boat. All you need is a boat and off you go.
It it just makes sense to me you learn would how to make an ocean passage before you give it a go as skipper.
It doesn't matter how far away the land is if you can't see it. except if you cant see it for fog in which case I'd be more interested in your coastal navigation.

Besides if you are doing it as a prep course you never actualy were the skipper. not that there is anything wrong with that.
Its just the requirments a weird.

 

[laika]

Because Solent -> Corunna is just short, for my YMO qualifier I did Solent -> Corunna via Sisarges Island. This island is about 20 miles west of Corunna and brought the total distance to just over 600 miles. No objection was raised to this.

Was it accepted because A to B via a C which you don't stop at and don't have any reason to go via other than to make the passage from A to B longer is ok according to the RYA, or because as john_morris_uk says on page 3, most examiners really aren't going to care about 20 miles if they think you know what you're doing? Based matsandy's post #11 I'd guess the latter.

I understand a requirement to have crewed for a minimum distance and minimum no trips. But I don't get the requirment to skipper an ofshore passage before you can be qualified.

The YM Ocean allows you to do the qualifying passage as mate as long as you had a significant hand in the planning of the trip.

I do wonder (maybe someone with first hand experience can tell us) how sailing schools do these passages. Do candidates really get to say what kit goes on the boat, what medical supplies to take, how the boat and rig should be checked before leaving etc. or is it just a token involvement in provisioning? And do they turn the GPS receivers off and actually allow the candidate to navigate by non-electronic means, or does each candidate just take a couple of sights en route and a compass check each? Anyone with first hand experience want to comment?

 

[Talulah]

I do wonder (maybe someone with first hand experience can tell us) how sailing schools do these passages. Do candidates really get to say what kit goes on the boat, what medical supplies to take, how the boat and rig should be checked before leaving etc. or is it just a token involvement in provisioning? And do they turn the GPS receivers off and actually allow the candidate to navigate by non-electronic means, or does each candidate just take a couple of sights en route and a compass check each? Anyone with first hand experience want to comment?

It's very hard for schools to run these Ocean qualifying passages. Mostly boats are coded for up to 60 miles from a safe haven so there is the first problem - having a suitable boat. Likewise clients tend to arrive the day before the off so only a token involvement in planning, checking, provisioning etc. Sometimes the clients do get a chance to be more involved in the pre-start stuff. Especially when waiting for a weather window.
A lot of the trips are also down right boring. Crossing Biscay in the summer can be 80% motoring. In these conditions the client doesn't really do much other than take and plot sights.
Much better if you can do these qualifying passages on your own boat or as a mate on a friends boat. Hire an instructor to come along if needs be.
I have done a 600 mile passage in Winter. In that instance the client learnt a great deal about 'heavy weather' sailing. Whilst panicked at the time he would now be much better prepared than some existing YM Ocean holders. The problem in Winter is getting the opportunity to take sights. Cloud gets in the way if sea sickness doesn't. GPS stayed on all the time - it's a safety issue.

 

[laika]

Much better if you can do these qualifying passages on your own boat or as a mate on a friends boat.

My question was purely academic interest. I've done ocean deliveries as mate and after the first where the skipper's only navigational tool was a single laptop (contrary to the company's marketing blurb...) I did YM Ocean theory and took along a sextant and tables. Although I'd take sights regularly for practice, these were never used to "navigate" ( the skipper was just going to follow GPS whatever I said). I could doubtless have spun one of these as a qualifying passage, but as I've only just become eligible for an EN1 again after some ill health 5 years ago the qualification would only have been for personal satisfaction. Given that, I have a hankering after doing it "properly" (or "excessively" depending on your POV . I now have the boat so it's only excuses in the way now...

 

[ALPHORA]

I have been hoping to do a qualifying passage sometime in the next few months. Being based in North Yorks I was thinking of a trip across the N Sea, round Heligoland and back. This would cover the required distance overall and being offshore for the required time and distance. Would it qualify if the start and finish are not 650nm apart?

 

[Jamesuk]

I have been hoping to do a qualifying passage sometime in the next few months. Being based in North Yorks I was thinking of a trip across the N Sea, round Heligoland and back. This would cover the required distance overall and being offshore for the required time and distance. Would it qualify if the start and finish are not 650nm apart?

Hey I need to do mine too, let me know when your going to do it and if you need an extra crew then ill bring a long a sextant... And myself i have a drysuit to test )

 

[Talulah]

I have been hoping to do a qualifying passage sometime in the next few months. Being based in North Yorks I was thinking of a trip across the N Sea, round Heligoland and back. This would cover the required distance overall and being offshore for the required time and distance. Would it qualify if the start and finish are not 650nm apart?

No. Wouldn't qualify. Fails the shortest navigable route test.

 

[oldbilbo]

Why are people so obsessed with doing the minimum? Is the only worth that of receiving a scrap of paper from the RYA?
What about learning what it is to be 'a long way offshore and totally reliant on self and one's resources'? Is the certification devalued due to sailing school overarching needs to fill a boat with 'candidates' and keep earning a crust?

I understood, from many years back, that the Ocean certificate was about ocean seamanship, and the nav techniques were but a part of that.

In my book, navigating by sextant means far, far more than shooting and resolving the occasional single sun LOP. if that's all you're capable of, you may as well not bother and just follow the rising/setting sun ( as appropriate ) until some land turns up.... then ask where on earth you are.

In my book, too, navigating a small boat by sextant involves the capability to run about half the width of an ocean, 1000nm or so ( more than 600 ) and reliably make a reasonably safe landfall, using only a sextant, a corrected compass, and a log of distance run.

I don't see that reflected in what passes for an assessment today.

 

[AndrewB]

Why are people so obsessed with doing the minimum? Is the only worth that of receiving a scrap of paper from the RYA?

A 600 mile passage, a few days rest and then get the boat back again, is about the limit of what can be achieved in a two-week summer holiday. I recall the time when I too was looking round hard for a destination that would offer a qualifying passage doable in the time I had free.

Getting that scrap of paper gave me the confidence to skipper my yacht on real ocean passages later on. Isn't that why people do it?

 

[Uricanejack]

The 600 miles is just a line set because a line of some kind is required.
The entire RYA spectrum of certification is about self improvment and achievment on a vollentary basis. It is quite leagal to sail of over the horizon without any qualifications or expierience.
Its about knowladge. Understaning, world wide currents and weather paterns. sailing acros the Bay of Biscay is not going to enlighten anyone on the mysteries of the monsoon or how to recognise the aproach of a TRS. Its not the point. reading the mariners handbook and ocean passages of the world will help.
The sextant and its use is just a part. While I might think its nuts to head ofshore with out a basic knowladge of how to use one. Many people do succesfully, without knowing how or knowing the differance between a mercator sailing and a plane sailing, which you can learn from a book.
Sailing out of sight of and out of range of assistance is the point. Planning and preparing for the adventure and doing so safely is the goal.
The Biscay can be nice or awfull, as bad as it gets, you will need to pay attention to the more than just the fore cast weather. You will need some knowladge of the likly seasonal conditions, Genuine Ocean conditions. and how to prepare for them. Theres a lot of traffic.

Personnaly. I take my hat off to anyone who achieves this 600 miles or 6000.

Funny thing is I can do most of what is required no bother. Yet when you consider the furthest I have ever sailed in one go was about 5 days and 500m Inver kip to Cammaret.
My voyage planning ability. There is a strong posabilty we would get there but you might be suffering from scurvy or have died of thirst. or the mast fell off

 

[cofezer]

Sounds great. I suggest you give a try anyway.

 

[Uricanejack]

Why are people so obsessed with doing the minimum? Is the only worth that of receiving a scrap of paper from the RYA?
What about learning what it is to be 'a long way offshore and totally reliant on self and one's resources'? Is the certification devalued due to sailing school overarching needs to fill a boat with 'candidates' and keep earning a crust?

I understood, from many years back, that the Ocean certificate was about ocean seamanship, and the nav techniques were but a part of that.

In my book, navigating by sextant means far, far more than shooting and resolving the occasional single sun LOP. if that's all you're capable of, you may as well not bother and just follow the rising/setting sun ( as appropriate ) until some land turns up.... then ask where on earth you are.

In my book, too, navigating a small boat by sextant involves the capability to run about half the width of an ocean, 1000nm or so ( more than 600 ) and reliably make a reasonably safe landfall, using only a sextant, a corrected compass, and a log of distance run.

I don't see that reflected in what passes for an assessment today.

Sorry Bilbo got to dissagree. Crossing half an ocean just isn't quite good enough, you got to make it the whole way to pass. Ocean or Bay

 

[alant]

The 600 miles is just a line set because a line of some kind is required.
The entire RYA spectrum of certification is about self improvment and achievment on a vollentary basis. It is quite leagal to sail of over the horizon without any qualifications or expierience.
Its about knowladge. Understaning, world wide currents and weather paterns. sailing acros the Bay of Biscay is not going to enlighten anyone on the mysteries of the monsoon or how to recognise the aproach of a TRS. Its not the point. reading the mariners handbook and ocean passages of the world will help.
The sextant and its use is just a part. While I might think its nuts to head ofshore with out a basic knowladge of how to use one. Many people do succesfully, without knowing how or knowing the differance between a mercator sailing and a plane sailing, which you can learn from a book.
Sailing out of sight of and out of range of assistance is the point. Planning and preparing for the adventure and doing so safely is the goal.
The Biscay can be nice or awfull, as bad as it gets, you will need to pay attention to the more than just the fore cast weather. You will need some knowladge of the likly seasonal conditions, Genuine Ocean conditions. and how to prepare for them. Theres a lot of traffic.

Personnaly. I take my hat off to anyone who achieves this 600 miles or 6000.

Funny thing is I can do most of what is required no bother. Yet when you consider the furthest I have ever sailed in one go was about 5 days and 500m Inver kip to Cammaret.
My voyage planning ability. There is a strong posabilty we would get there but you might be suffering from scurvy or have died of thirst. or the mast fell off

Exactly.

When you are a couple of weeks offshore, you then understand how precarious your situation can be, particularly in the event of gear failure or lack of drinking water. Even passing ships (should you be lucky enough to see one) pass without aknowledgement. You have to rely upon your own resources & basic skills.

This can be both exhilarating & sphincter clenching at the same time!