YM fog ?

PilotWolf said:
Tricolours are the spawn of the devil and should be oulawed. They give false indications of heading and a little waiver of course gives conflicting information.

PW
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A half decent tricolour gives the exact same colours and angles relationship as good individual nav lights.
It's more likely that the other vessel will see more than one light with typical deck level lights
 
dom said:
By the time trade had recovered and fuel costs had fallen again, supply chains and logistics had adapted to the point that companies were using ships as an alternative to warehouse costs! This in part explains why different routes operate at different speeds.
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Presumably it's a case of if you need it quickly, send it by air, and if you don't need it quickly then it doesn't matter if it's three weeks or four.

Pete
 
RupertW said:
I am also of the "autopilot on" camp - I want to be able to keep looking around not to have my eyes glued to a compass which is the only other option.

I quite like the idea of a masthead light sticking above the fog but more likely to use the tricolour in darkness and the anchor light in the day.

The other idea that is new to me in the advice is to unclip - I think this is really sound advice as the increased danger is not falling overboard - any more than it would be normally in calm weather but in being hit and being pulled down with the boat. Awkward but possible also I suppose to get off watch crew up and in lifejackets too but that wouldn't be popular, and certainly wouldn't be practical for long lasting fog.
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Agreed on the autopilot but if the masthead is clear of the fog (and presumably in sunshine) how would having any lights on really help?
 
Yes it does - often - whether at 20 feet, 50 feet or 100 feet I have often seen masts and the tops of ships over a fog bank
 
Little Grebe said:
Agreed on the autopilot but if the masthead is clear of the fog (and presumably in sunshine) how would having any lights on really help?
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I was thinking of the tricolour at night, but anchor light if gloomy above the fog (dusk, dawn, thick clouds above the fog bank).
 
dom said:
‘Slow Steaming’ was introduced during the credit crunch in response to falling trade, roofing bunker prices, and an oversupply of ships globally. A ship can save around 60% of fuel costs by pulling back from 28kts to 18kts, more if slower still.

By the time trade had recovered and fuel costs had fallen again, supply chains and logistics had adapted to the point that companies were using ships as an alternative to warehouse costs! This in part explains why different routes operate at different speeds.

And the trend looks here to stay, for today hull designs are being altered to optimise slower speeds and smaller cleaner engines are being fitted.
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Not to mention that by slow-steaming, carriers can absorb more of the overcapacity of ships as additional ships are required on each loop.
 
prv said:
Presumably it's a case of if you need it quickly, send it by air, and if you don't need it quickly then it doesn't matter if it's three weeks or four.

Pete
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At the margin, yes, but the economics are quite complicated. Slow steaming improves delivery slot accuracy, thereby reducing handling costs and supporting just-in-time logistics. For modern supply chains, delivery-point accuracy is normally more important than speed. Then there is the trade-off between fuel prices and freight rates, emission considerations, and even interest rates. A low interest rate environment allows creditworthy companies to cheaply fund additional inventory.

Finally, there is an inertia factor here in that the more 'slow steaming' becomes ingrained in the system, the harder it can be to shift, almost regardless of the economics for shipping Co.s

newtothis said:
Not to mention that by slow-steaming, carriers can absorb more of the overcapacity of ships as additional ships are required on each loop.
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Yup!
 
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lw395 said:
A half decent tricolour gives the exact same colours and angles relationship as good individual nav lights.
It's more likely that the other vessel will see more than one light with typical deck level lights
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Sorry but I disagree, separate port and starboard lights are far far clearer in definition of heading. I agree a higher light might be more visible but a tricolour is a bad visual compromise to fitting 'proper' lights.

PW
 
PilotWolf said:
Sorry but I disagree, separate port and starboard lights are far far clearer in definition of heading. I agree a higher light might be more visible but a tricolour is a bad visual compromise to fitting 'proper' lights.

PW
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With a tri, you see the colour according to the sector, with a very small angle where you'll get the colours blurred.
With separate lights, you will see the same colours, usually with a small angle where you see two colours at once, a little distance apart. Often on yachts the angles are less well defined than with a tricolour.
Yachts often don't hold a steady course so on the edge of the sectors you'll see the light flicking from red to green etc on each wave.
I don't understand how the difference is a big deal.
 
RupertW said:
Yes it does - often - whether at 20 feet, 50 feet or 100 feet I have often seen masts and the tops of ships over a fog bank
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Yes but often there will be thick fog at deck level and less fog or wisps of fog at the masthead, so a light up there may still be valuable.I don't think it can do any harm?
Unless you're going to keep climbing the mast to check the masthead is still in clear sunlight?
 
Low lying fog does occur in some conditions. I find fog lifting to become low cloud is more common. I have found it is more likely to see under fog rather than above it. Not saying it doesn’t happen just my observation it’s much more common to have better visibility lower down.

I have often found the darker hull colour or lower lights are the first sighted.

depends on the kind of fog.

Mind you I am not in the practice of sending anyone up to the crows nest these days.:)

I do notice my local ferry always has a lookout posted down on the bow in fog. Having chatted with the unfortunate deck hand. It can be a long cold day for them. Standard practice for them and they ussualy sight things before the bridge does.
 
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RupertW said:
I am also of the "autopilot on" camp - I want to be able to keep looking around not to have my eyes glued to a compass which is the only other option.

I quite like the idea of a masthead light sticking above the fog but more likely to use the tricolour in darkness and the anchor light in the day.

The other idea that is new to me in the advice is to unclip - I think this is really sound advice as the increased danger is not falling overboard - any more than it would be normally in calm weather but in being hit and being pulled down with the boat. Awkward but possible also I suppose to get off watch crew up and in lifejackets too but that wouldn't be popular, and certainly wouldn't be practical for long lasting fog.
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I am not persuaded about unclipping. You are always going to have time to unclip; in fog you can still go OB, and in fog you won’t be seen in the water. Expensive racing tethers allow you to unclip yourself under load anyway.
 
+1 to Minn's harness comment

Another point worth mentioning, which is used a lot when racing, is to place the boat in "Business Only" mode. This is useful in tense situations like blowy spinnaker gybes, and basically means chat about Brexit, booze, wives, husbands, holidays, etc., momentarily ceases and the boat is given 100% attention.

This might be making a cup of tea for the lookout, relaying AIS/radar info to he helm, trimming the sails, helping with radar interpretations, hoisting an additional radar reflector, etc.

Makes a surprising difference.
 
I'm not persuaded by the idea that there will always be time to unclip.

If a ship comes out of the mist 100 yards away, at 15 knots you have 12 seconds before impact. 12 seconds to get past the "Oh shit" moment, decide what to do and try to do it, decide it isn't going to work and think, "Oh, I must unclip". I just can't see it happening.

I agree that there's a risk assessment to be done. Most fog is in fairly calm conditions, so the risk of going overboard is low, especially if under power. If I needed to carry out some action that involved a risk of going over - sorting out a recalcitrant headsail or whatever, yes, I'd clip on for that action and unclip when safely back in the cockpit. If the sea's bad enough to warrant clipping on, then yes, by all means clip on because the risk of going over the side is greater than the risk of being hit
 
dunedin said:
What evidence for that statement with modern LED lamps?
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I haven't seen any to my knowledge, keep meaning to see if the IrPCS have been changed to allow LEDS.

My issue is there are three color changes where it can blur, especially as they get older and the colours start becoming faded and less distinct. Given there location how many people every check them?

No lights or a cellphone torch seem more popular around these parts! Scary when you consider the size of Los Angeles/Long Beach port with a lot of shipping movement, high speed ferries, fast whale watch boats and we get a lot more high speed military and emergency service craft flying around here than I ever saw in Europe.

W.
 
Stemar said:
I'm not persuaded by the idea that there will always be time to unclip.

If a ship comes out of the mist 100 yards away, at 15 knots you have 12 seconds before impact. 12 seconds to get past the "Oh shit" moment, decide what to do and try to do it, decide it isn't going to work and think, "Oh, I must unclip". I just can't see it happening.

I agree that there's a risk assessment to be done. Most fog is in fairly calm conditions, so the risk of going overboard is low, especially if under power. If I needed to carry out some action that involved a risk of going over - sorting out a recalcitrant headsail or whatever, yes, I'd clip on for that action and unclip when safely back in the cockpit. If the sea's bad enough to warrant clipping on, then yes, by all means clip on because the risk of going over the side is greater than the risk of being hit
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Ok a risk assessment is a valid point. We might if doing one together, come up with diffrent conclusions. to some extent a risk assessment is subjective.

The risk of colision in fog is undoubtably higher than in clear visibility. It’s not zero in ither. The level of risk will vary with the boats equipment, crew knowledge, expierience, and location. Among many other factors like speed traffic density proximity of navigation hazards ect.

If I did a risk assessment telling me. I needed to be concerned enough to bring the life raft out the locker and get it ready along with ensuring we were all wearing our life jackets and unclipped from the boat in case of an iminent collision.
Perhaps a logical conclusion of the risk assement would be . Don’t proceed with the voyage it’s far to dangerous.

Of course the YM article was about encountering fog unexpectedly. So continue the voyage may be a nessesity. Or is it? You could turn back or head for nearest safe anchorage. Or just stop and wait for the fog to lift. “6 weeks later”. Or at least for the visibility to improve to a more comfortable distance.

Most reply’s disagree with my choice of hand steering and auto pilot off. Your undetected vessel out of the fog at high speed is a major concern here. It could be a large ship, ferry tow boat.
The most likley vessel some “Albertan sport fisherman” with a hand held GPS and a fish finder. Heading to or from the fishing hole at full throttle.

By hand steering. I or the helm, can imeadiatly turn away. Hopefully avoiding the iminent collision. The throttle is right there as well. I am ready for an immediate manoeuvre which might be required in extremis. On auto pilot apart from the time and required thought to disengage the auto pilot. There might not be hand at hand to disengage. Because the hand is making tea, having a pee, checking the radar plotting the position. Adjusting a sheet ect. Point being not steering.

Having a life jacket on is a choice many sailors make at all times. I personally don’t. Though as PRV pointed out when I choose to clip on by default I have also chosen to put my life jacket on. The harness is built in,

Personal risk assessment. Independent of fog. If Alone on deck I like crew to clip on. Or at night. The risks of falling over board in my risk assessment. Out weigh the risk of colision.
Even in calm weather in fog. Consider the Albertan fisherman. When I have to make a sudden manoeuvre. Or more likley his wake from a near miss rather than a collision. The boat may roll quite violently, in fog unexpectedly. particularly without sails up. It’s very stiff.

If I encounter a large ship or ferry wake or the wake from a fast mono. Someone standing on fore deck or possibly even the cockpit could take a tumble.

Even with my radar on the Albertans are a hazard. Small, fast, difficult to track and frequently change course. Ships a relatively easy to deal with.

My previous boat had no radar. I had a couple of poor visibility trips but avoided actual thick fog.
Stopping completely until the large vessel I couldn’t see but could hear. Had passed.

Even with radar I still do the same.
 
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