YM fog ?

[johnalison]

+1 to that.

Of course it makes sense to get out of the way of big ships but there are times when getting 'caught out' is hard to avoid. My first experience of radar in fog was off the Frisians early in the morning approaching the Jade-Weser with two crew. On a two day passage. I was roused from my slumber and put in front of the radar. Navigating our way through the anchorage and shipping was no problem at all and my wife graciously forgave me for the time I had spent 'playing' with the set. On other occasions we have set off and been able to act as leader for other boats unequipped when morning fog surrounded the harbour. I wouldn't set off into the Dover Straits in thick fog, but in less congested seas and a lower chance of fog having radar puts you in a much better position.

 

[Elessar]

Of course it makes sense to get out of the way of big ships but there are times when getting 'caught out' is hard to avoid. My first experience of radar in fog was off the Frisians early in the morning approaching the Jade-Weser with two crew. On a two day passage. I was roused from my slumber and put in front of the radar. Navigating our way through the anchorage and shipping was no problem at all and my wife graciously forgave me for the time I had spent 'playing' with the set. On other occasions we have set off and been able to act as leader for other boats unequipped when morning fog surrounded the harbour. I wouldn't set off into the Dover Straits in thick fog, but in less congested seas and a lower chance of fog having radar puts you in a much better position.

I had crossed the channel many times without radar( and indeed without GPS) but my first crossing with radar was a twin engine mobo I’d bought on the Thames. Sunny day, smooth sea, crossing from south foreland to France. Then the first trip to sea after a few years stirred up tank sludge and I was losing an engine. And in minutes the fog came down thick and the ships we could see disappeared. I changed the filter in the separation zone with my young daughter at the helm keeping is under way. But I have never crossed without radar since. Having said that for the purpose of channel crossing AIS is a good cheap alternative.

 

[obmij]

Having said that for the purpose of channel crossing AIS is a good cheap alternative.

Given the price and it availability of equipment it is foolish for any vessel to set off without AIS and preferably a transceiver.

 

[dom]

I had crossed the channel many times without radar( and indeed without GPS) but my first crossing with radar was a twin engine mobo I’d bought on the Thames. Sunny day, smooth sea, crossing from south foreland to France. Then the first trip to sea after a few years stirred up tank sludge and I was losing an engine. And in minutes the fog came down thick and the ships we could see disappeared. I changed the filter in the separation zone with my young daughter at the helm keeping is under way. But I have never crossed without radar since. Having said that for the purpose of channel crossing AIS is a good cheap alternative.

...or as more might say, ‘backup’.

 

[lw395]

Radar is a wonderful thing in the right hands.
Many years ago I had a week in N France/CI's blighted by fog.
We struggled to get a forecast window to come home, saw some fog in the shipping lanes on the way back.
So I'm starting to price up radars and ask if my boat has space etc.
The next evening, I'm in one of the better West Country yot clubs, browsing their magazine stack.
There was an article in one about yachs which had managed to get themselves hit by ships.
1) Very few yachts get hit by ships
2) A distressingly large fraction of those which do, had radar.

This was before AIS was commonplace.

 

[PilotWolf]

Teaching granny and eggs but... USE radar in good weather too, it gives you a better idea of what you're looking at on the screen and gives confidence and 'training' when you aren't under pressure to use its information.

W.

 

[Uricanejack]

Radar is a wonderful thing in the right hands.
Many years ago I had a week in N France/CI's blighted by fog.
We struggled to get a forecast window to come home, saw some fog in the shipping lanes on the way back.
So I'm starting to price up radars and ask if my boat has space etc.
The next evening, I'm in one of the better West Country yot clubs, browsing their magazine stack.
There was an article in one about yachs which had managed to get themselves hit by ships.
1) Very few yachts get hit by ships
2) A distressingly large fraction of those which do, had radar.

This was before AIS was commonplace.

Not sure how big your boat is or how much space it has. They don’t take up much space now. If you do decide to get a radar.
It is worth while to take a course on ussing radar.

 

[[163233]]

I haven't seen any to my knowledge, keep meaning to see if the IrPCS have been changed to allow LEDS.

The colregs specify the visibility of lights, not how that is achieved.
You could do it with glow sticks in principle.

 

[PilotWolf]

The colregs specify the visibility of lights, not how that is achieved.
You could do it with glow sticks in principle.

I believe they also specify the frequency of the light and that I believe cannot be achieved by LED or glows ticks.

W.

 

[GHA]

I believe they also specify the frequency of the light and that I believe cannot be achieved by LED or glows ticks.

W.

Look at the data sheets, LEDs can fall within the chromatacity boundaries specified in irpcs annex 1:7.
Cree 503D certainly do.

 

[Elessar]

...or as more might say, ‘backup’.

No I meant "alternative".
The statement was caveated with the statement "for the purpose of crossing the channel"

 

[dom]

No I meant "alternative".
The statement was caveated with the statement "for the purpose of crossing the channel"

I'm not an RYA instructor, but I'd personally recommend exactly the opposite and strongly so. In fact, I would feel much safer with an operational radar set and decently specced radar reflector like an Echomax 230.

Trouble with AIS-only is that one could for example be altering course in good time to avoid an AIS transmitting ship, thereby setting up a conflict with a non-transmitting fishing boat or yacht which had hitherto given way and expected you to hold your course under Rule 17a (i).

Aside from the many Colreg problems of being blind to non-transmitting vessels, radar can provide invaluable info during the pilotage port-entry stage. Finally there is the matter that other vessels will expect an AIS transmitting vessel to be radar equipped, increasing their element of surprise if the boat does something ostensibly daft. And surprise here = danger.

So for me, I'd recommend radar all the way.

 

[LadyInBed]

I'd personally recommend exactly the opposite and strongly so. In fact, I would feel much safer with an operational radar set and decently specced radar reflector like an Echomax 230.

Agreed, but for those who can't afford a RADAR, AIS (Rx or Transceiver) and a decent radar reflector is a damn good second option considering that about 99% of crossings are fog free.

 

[dom]

Agreed, but for those who can't afford a RADAR, AIS (Rx or Transceiver) and a decent radar reflector is a damn good second option considering that about 99% of crossings are fog free.

Agreed, not as a "good cheap alternative", but as a second option if finances require. And ALWAYS backed up by a good radar reflector, bearing in mind that the omnipotent Plastimo tubes are close to useless and the trad octahedral mounted in the catch-rain position still not that great.

 

[johnalison]

I view AIS as an invaluable assistant in good weather, making planning one's way across a shipping lane much less stressful, with a bonus of making my boat visible to others in fog and also providing some assistance in detecting other risks in fog. This is from the viewpoint of someone with radar as well. If I did not have radar and couldn't afford it, I would still view it as my first statement, plus the possibility of providing emergency assistance if I were caught in fog, which I would always avoid as far as possible. With radar, I would be more prepared to set out in marginal conditions or when I might expect coastal fog to clear later.

 

[capnsensible]

Cant see why showing incorrect lights and not clipping on is anything other than bonkers.......

 

[RupertW]

Cant see why showing incorrect lights and not clipping on is anything other than bonkers.......

If the risk of being pulled down by the boat after a collision rises to be higher than the risk of falling overboard you'd be bonkers to clip on in fog. How to judge the relative risk is the hard bit.

 

[capnsensible]

If the risk of being pulled down by the boat after a collision rises to be higher than the risk of falling overboard you'd be bonkers to clip on in fog. How to judge the relative risk is the hard bit.

I can only base my view on lots of sailing in fog and practising it hundreds of times. But really just like at night and in poor weather including whiteout rain if someone goes over not clipped on its goodnight irene.
To unclip takes a part of a second.
No brainer.

 

[Uricanejack]

I view AIS as an invaluable assistant in good weather, making planning one's way across a shipping lane much less stressful, with a bonus of making my boat visible to others in fog and also providing some assistance in detecting other risks in fog. This is from the viewpoint of someone with radar as well. If I did not have radar and couldn't afford it, I would still view it as my first statement, plus the possibility of providing emergency assistance if I were caught in fog, which I would always avoid as far as possible. With radar, I would be more prepared to set out in marginal conditions or when I might expect coastal fog to clear later.

The premise of the article was unexpectedly getting caught of in fog. So not a choice.
A good point though setting out knowing thier is fog at the time or in the forecast.
It’s a good question would you set out in fog?
The answer I guess will depend on your boats equipment and your confidence. It’s not a requirement to have ither radar or AIS or to be equipped with them to sail in fog. It’s a choice.

I do have a radar. Even so I choose not to set off. When thier is fog. I wait for it to lift. This said if there is no fog. I may set off knowing fog patches or even fog may be encountered later. So I guess I have to say in some circumstances I might set off in fog. Generally speaking where practical I choose to avoid fog.

Would I cross the channel in fog. Actually I have long ago. Down by Plymouth not Dover. Sometimes fog in the Channel is very likely for quite a time frame.

I do have quite a bit of experience operating other boats in fog. It’s not a big deal. Still it makes for a long day which I would rather do without. I have had a few close calls.

 

[Stemar]

I can only base my view on lots of sailing in fog and practising it hundreds of times. But really just like at night and in poor weather including whiteout rain if someone goes over not clipped on its goodnight irene.
To unclip takes a part of a second.
No brainer.

Far from a no brainer.

Thinking about unclipping when you're busy getting past the rabbit in headlights moment, then trying to avoid a collision may not happen and if the boat starts pulling me down, I don't rate my chances of unclipping. My risk assessment - which may change from moment to moment, is to clip on if my risk of going over the side is greater than the risk of collision, which probably means anything out of the cockpit, and unclip if the risk of collision is greater than the risk of going over the side, which is probably safely in the cockpit in reasonable conditions.

Just to add another ingredient, should one remove one's lifejacket when going below to make a cuppa, or whatever? This doesn't only apply in fog.

Someone at our club was saying that if the cabin fills with water and your jacket inflates, it's likely to trap you below. He's not wrong, but while I'm fairly safety conscious, I don't. Maybe I should but, on balance, it's such a faff that having a knife easily to hand so I can stab it in extremis seems to me to be a reasonable alternative.