KenMcCulloch
Well-Known Member
Errrr.... I think Awol was making a joke. He does that quite a lot, quite often they are even pretty funny.
YM exam?
- Thread starter scotty123
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benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Aha! Got me too. I was going to say, wouldn't it be easier to wait till it got dark to simulate night sailing by doing it for real? Even now, at the end of May on the UK South coast, at least, there is plenty of dark.
The day I did mine I had an odd experience which I have never known whether it was part of the exam or just a coincidence. Just as the examiner arrived, a certain moodynick of this parish called me on the vhf to say that one of my pontoon neighbours - a white ensign wearing gentleman of a military disposition and advancing years - was coming in rather hot on his final approach with his main jammed half way up the mast and for gawd's sake could I use my ingenuity to at least cushion the impact.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, by the time I'd taken a couple of lines and the fuss had died down I was pretty much ready for any curveballs the examiner could throw at me.
Gk 66
Active Member
Final tips, pre prepare a viable and believable passage plan prior to the exam. And make sure your tender outboard runs out of petrol on the way to the mooring. That way you'll have dropped all your F-bombs for the day before the examiner arrives.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
I'm taking a YM Examiner Examiner out for a jolly on Saturday. So no pressure, then!
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
My experience is also 19 years old so maybe not so relevant. The one thing you can be certain of is an MOB under sail. Anything else is up for grabs, e.g. I didn't have to do blind navigation. A good thing to be aware of is use of transits. I was told to go and anchor at a point marked on the chart. The X on the chart was close to the fold and when I opened it out it was an obvious pair of transits - the other side of the fold.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
As one of the RYA examiners who contributes to these forums I suppose I ought to reply!
When I was appointed, Bill Anderson told me, "You don't have to set trick questions, the candidates are quite capable of mucking up on their own." He was right and in my introductory brief I always tell the candidates that if I ask them to do something it will be because I think it's a reasonable and achievable thing to do. No tricks...
Leaving aside the joke which wasn't spotted by some, crew management can be contextual. Yacht skippering is all about skills AND the ability to run the boat and organise the crew. The fact that you are all friends and sail together regularly doesn't alter that fact.
This was in reply to 'an hour long safety brief'. I would be very unhappy with a candidate doing a safety brief that took so long. Not only would the crew have lost the will to live but if you did it for real they wouldn't ever come sailing with you again. An appropriate safety brief is what I look for. I'll soon ask you about things if you don't mention them, but so long as you demonstrate that you are briefing the crew on the essentials for the sailing trip you are about to do then I would be content. In other words, the brief for an ocean crossing might take place over a whole day (or split up over days) but a brief for going for a sail round the bay might take a few minutes. For example, the whole crew do not need to have the entire contents of the flares box discussed for an afternoons sail so long as they know where the flares are and at least more than one of you knows what they are for and how to use them.
I usually give the context of the trip in which I want any safety brief given and then discuss with the candidates what they do in other circumstances.
From memory, the guidelines say 'One candidate is 8-12 hours and no more than three in one 24 hour period.'
Accidental Gybe is not good. Being dangerous in ANY way is NOT GOOD! (Not just dropping the boom on people's heads...)
However assuming its not outright dangerous I always remind candidates that getting something wrong is not necessarily a problem; its how they cope with sorting things out that matters. But before you get too confident or reassured, getting simple things wrong doesn't impress either...
When I was appointed, Bill Anderson told me, "You don't have to set trick questions, the candidates are quite capable of mucking up on their own." He was right and in my introductory brief I always tell the candidates that if I ask them to do something it will be because I think it's a reasonable and achievable thing to do. No tricks...
Leaving aside the joke which wasn't spotted by some, crew management can be contextual. Yacht skippering is all about skills AND the ability to run the boat and organise the crew. The fact that you are all friends and sail together regularly doesn't alter that fact.
This was in reply to 'an hour long safety brief'. I would be very unhappy with a candidate doing a safety brief that took so long. Not only would the crew have lost the will to live but if you did it for real they wouldn't ever come sailing with you again. An appropriate safety brief is what I look for. I'll soon ask you about things if you don't mention them, but so long as you demonstrate that you are briefing the crew on the essentials for the sailing trip you are about to do then I would be content. In other words, the brief for an ocean crossing might take place over a whole day (or split up over days) but a brief for going for a sail round the bay might take a few minutes. For example, the whole crew do not need to have the entire contents of the flares box discussed for an afternoons sail so long as they know where the flares are and at least more than one of you knows what they are for and how to use them.
I usually give the context of the trip in which I want any safety brief given and then discuss with the candidates what they do in other circumstances.
From memory, the guidelines say 'One candidate is 8-12 hours and no more than three in one 24 hour period.'
Accidental Gybe is not good. Being dangerous in ANY way is NOT GOOD! (Not just dropping the boom on people's heads...)
However assuming its not outright dangerous I always remind candidates that getting something wrong is not necessarily a problem; its how they cope with sorting things out that matters. But before you get too confident or reassured, getting simple things wrong doesn't impress either...
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AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Well, I missed the joke, which was pretty well hidden from those who have never attended a sea-going RYA course. After all, if you're learning to fly they DO simulate night flying with a hood!
I would argue that it fundamentally alters the situation, in that roles and relationships established in other contexts a) inform the skipper as to what to expect without needing to ask or even think about it and b) means that the style has to be entirely different - some people may be aboard to humour others, for example, and have no intention of learning more than minimal skills! With friends and family aboard, the crew self-organizes to a large extent, with people taking up roles corresponding to their situation in the rest of their life. It also means that things like safety briefings can be taken for granted - everyone knows their place on the boat, where things are kept. and what rules apply for safety in different circumstances
Just for example, we've all seen accounts of a skipper yelling commands at his wife or partner, followed later on by arguments, tears or tantrums! And yet the same commands might be taken as quite normal and acceptable in the context of a crew of strangers or committed racers.
I for one found (for example) the section on "joining ship" in the Competent Crew Handbook totally off-putting, as it assumes that people will be joining a bunch of hairy-arsed strangers and that the experience will be on the adventurous side. Fortunately I leant to sail and navigate with my parents long before the RYA courses existed, so I know the experience doesn't have to be like that
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Well, I missed the joke, which was pretty well hidden from those who have never attended a sea-going RYA course. After all, if you're learning to fly they DO simulate night flying with a hood!
I would argue that it fundamentally alters the situation, in that roles and relationships established in other contexts a) inform the skipper as to what to expect without needing to ask or even think about it and b) means that the style has to be entirely different - some people may be aboard to humour others, for example, and have no intention of learning more than minimal skills! With friends and family aboard, the crew self-organizes to a large extent, with people taking up roles corresponding to their situation in the rest of their life. It also means that things like safety briefings can be taken for granted - everyone knows their place on the boat, where things are kept. and what rules apply for safety in different circumstances
Just for example, we've all seen accounts of a skipper yelling commands at his wife or partner, followed later on by arguments, tears or tantrums! And yet the same commands might be taken as quite normal and acceptable in the context of a crew of strangers or committed racers.
I for one found (for example) the section on "joining ship" in the Competent Crew Handbook totally off-putting, as it assumes that people will be joining a bunch of hairy-arsed strangers and that the experience will be on the adventurous side. Fortunately I leant to sail and navigate with my parents long before the RYA courses existed, so I know the experience doesn't have to be like that
I understand your point but perhaps it misses the point of the exam. After all you are asking to be examined for a ticket to show you have a reasonably high ability as a skipper, not that you can take your family sailing. Perhaps the logic is that if you can demonstrate that you can take charge of a group of strangers then you should be even better with people you know like your family. (Not sure that's true but I hope you know what I mean.).
In reality, if the crew seem to be doing things by telepathy then you just give the candidate some tasks outside their normal experience and then the skipper HAS to come up with a plan and take charge.
I have the same problem with a group of friends who all sail together. If one is not careful things 'just happen' and you have to get them all to stop being skippers and start being reasonably helpful and competent crew.
I would argue that you can soon see who's a good skipper and who isn't..
Nico
Well-Known Member
On my coastal the examiner asked me to anchor just to the east of Beaulieu entrance. I did as I was told albeit not very successfully as one of the other candidates who was on the bow decided to abandon his duties and go below to prepare his next exercise (!). Then when it was all done the examiner pointed out the "undersea cables" bit on the map. I'm not totally convinced it was a trick, as he let me drop the hook, though I suppose the chance of blacking out the IOW is probably miniscule.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
IMHO shouting at the crew is not 'taking charge' or being a good skipper
When I'm sailing with family and friends things 'just happen'as well but I think people are missing the point of what I was trying to say.
In an exam I have to decide whether 'things just happening' are a result of a good crew that has learned and been briefed somewhere in the past or an inept incompetent skipper being hidden by a group of people who know what they are doing.
Fortunately taking any RYA qualification isn't compulsory in the UK and you can make a choice.
Conversely it's recognised as being probably the best qualification for yachting in the world so I am bemused by people who try to pick holes in the system and it isn't helpful to the OP.
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Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
A novice or less experienced crew is better during the exam than a 3 regular crew. With novices, you will have to think hard and issue clear instructions, demonstrating to your examiner you know how do manage a crew. The danger with skilled regular crew is that they know what is needed and jump to action before you get the instruction out!
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
I think this is the crux of the issue. If you say to anyone in the world, (who knows a bit about sailing), that you have the RYA Yachtmasters Certificate, it tells them that you know a bit about what you are doing.
It will give them confidence to charter a yacht to you, or to have you as a reasonably serious crew member, and so on.
For me it gave me a sense of personal satisfaction and achievement, and I also learned quite a bit during the prep course.
I don't think I've actually used it in anger, as I haven't had to show anybody that I know what I'm doing, since getting it.
Talulah
Well-Known Member
I'm a little but more cautious now since the 'Brand' has been extended to include Coastal.
I also have to ask if they are refering to having done the course or passed the exam. Often it is the former only.
alant
Well-Known Member
Well, I missed the joke, which was pretty well hidden from those who have never attended a sea-going RYA course. After all, if you're learning to fly they DO simulate night flying with a hood!
I would argue that it fundamentally alters the situation, in that roles and relationships established in other contexts a) inform the skipper as to what to expect without needing to ask or even think about it and b) means that the style has to be entirely different - some people may be aboard to humour others, for example, and have no intention of learning more than minimal skills! With friends and family aboard, the crew self-organizes to a large extent, with people taking up roles corresponding to their situation in the rest of their life. It also means that things like safety briefings can be taken for granted - everyone knows their place on the boat, where things are kept. and what rules apply for safety in different circumstances
Just for example, we've all seen accounts of a skipper yelling commands at his wife or partner, followed later on by arguments, tears or tantrums! And yet the same commands might be taken as quite normal and acceptable in the context of a crew of strangers or committed racers.
I for one found (for example) the section on "joining ship" in the Competent Crew Handbook totally off-putting, as it assumes that people will be joining a bunch of hairy-arsed strangers and that the experience will be on the adventurous side. Fortunately I leant to sail and navigate with my parents long before the RYA courses existed, so I know the experience doesn't have to be like that
How do you read the instruments, when hooded?
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
I'm not disagreeing with this statement at all - merely suggesting that it could be extended to make it less forbidding and more useful to family cruisers. Perhaps "Cruising Crew" for the whole of a family/friends unit?
I also wish there was a clear cut way of doing parts of the syllabus - I am quite happy with my ability to navigate and sail competently, for example, but would value a short course on the IRPCS and weather matters, both of which I know well enough to keep me out of trouble, but where more detailed knowledge might be useful. The one-day specialist courses are excellent - I've done Sea Survival, VHF and Diesel Engine certificates, all of which were very useful. Extending this to cover all the elements of the YM courses would be very useful.
I think that the all or nothing nature of the courses is also off putting. As I said, I would be happy to do sections of the syllabus, but there are other sections where my professional knowledge is such that I would potentially know more than the instructor. Also, because of that knowledge, I might well use techniques and/or short-cuts that are not in the book, so to speak. I also dislike learning things by rule - for example, I'd rather work out celestial navigation from first principles than simply learn a method of reducing sights. A more modular approach to the teaching would be very useful for many people, especially long-time sailors like me.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
The hood only blocks the windscreen; it's more like a sort of visor. I never got that far with my training!
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
I remember being told that one favourite question is: "From the Beaulieu River sail to Newtown Creek by the most direct route". Which, of course, involves crossing Beaulieu spit or using the entrance channel depending on tide and draft.
Unless, that is, you are are Cornishman, in which case the correct response is, I'll do that drekly.
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Like blinkers on a racehorse, perhaps?
Gk 66
Active Member
Just to give my advise a bit of context.
The exam was on my own boat, perhaps the examiner was happy to start with an informal tour of an unfamiliar boat whilst discussing safety issues?
At the time, I had a passage plan in place for a trip to Camaret. Such a trip merits a full safety brief.
I'm sufficiently enthusistic about my hobby and my boat that I can give people a familiarisation tour around it without them losing the will to live.
I passed the exam, and the very experienced YME saw fit to mention the safety aspects of the day in the post course report.
I got a free safety audit from a subject matter expert as part of the exam fee.
I would be the last person to reccomend standing in the cockpit droning out instructions from a clipboard. An informal and inclusive safety brief does not have to be in that format.
Anyway, its reggatta weekend, so Im off to go sailing. Laters
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
It might be argued that there's a bit of contradiction in your post. On the one hand you say you seem to wish that the RYA were more clear cut in what they suggest in how to do things on a yacht but want to take your own short cuts. You then say you don't want rote learning but to learn from first principles..
However:
I think the only way to learn IRPCS is to learn them and learn how to apply them through practical use at sea. I suppose some discussion might help but I note that some of the discussions in these forums aren't as helpful as they might be...
There are some excellent short courses available on weather and I suspect there might be demand for some more.
The most important point I would make is about practical sailing. Because the nature of yachting is so diverse, there CAN'T be an approved way of doing things. There are lots of ways to skin a cat and there are many ways you can approach some evolutions in sailing. I have to judge whether its safe and whether what the candidate did was a fluke or a thought through and sensible approach. This means that your short cuts might be perfectly acceptable. You might get asked to talk through why and how you do something in a particular way but I wouldn't worry about any idiosyncrasies per se.
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