Yachty snobs?

Elessar said:
where am I going with this.......

The Yachtmaster exam is supposed to show a high degree of seamanship. I think that to get one for sail you should have to be able to demonstrate handling of a mobo to helmsman level and to get the mobo one you should be able to sail to a similar degree.

The removal of the ignorance (meant literally not nastily) would help us all get on better I think.

So as an examiner, what do you think?
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Sounds like jobs for the boys? ;)
 
Elessar said:
OK serious question for you in particular John, but I'm sure others will contribute.

On this thread, reasonable people have said things like "you just push the throttle and sit there" on a mobo, whilst some mobos have been known complain about raggies tacking.

8o% + of safely taking a boat out is the same, power or sail. Raggies could soon learn how to trim the tabs, legs and throttles, to navigate at higher speed and drive on the throttles in rougher weather - we can leave out the big waves when you have to tack a mobo. Mobos could soon learn how to get the sails up in some semblance of order - it's not hard after all 6 year olds do it in dinghys. Again we leave out racing and very heavy weather stuff. Both could get to learn the very different handing characteristics and thus challenges facing their fellow boaters at close quarters.

where am I going with this.......

The Yachtmaster exam is supposed to show a high degree of seamanship. I think that to get one for sail you should have to be able to demonstrate handling of a mobo to helmsman level and to get the mobo one you should be able to sail to a similar degree.

The removal of the ignorance (meant literally not nastily) would help us all get on better I think.

So as an examiner, what do you think?
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That's an interesting thought.

Of course it isn't really practical to implement it as there isn't a ready source of suitable power boats for potential YM candidates to attempt to manoeuvre, and vice versa. (Well you could achieve it, but not a reasonable cost), and I guess that the RYA would not want to make the process and the cost of the voluntary exam prohibitively expensive or time consuming.

Of course for me as an examiner, a dead give away of an inexperienced person attempting to drive a large twin engine power boat at very slow speeds is when they start using lots of helm. The typically small rudders on a power boat don't have much effect at very slow speeds. As you will know. most twin screwed power boats respond best at very low speeds by judicial use of the throttles – nudging ahead on one or the other or both – perhaps with lots of neutral in between to keep the speed down.

Mind you I also had an urge to get my hands round the neck of the driver of the 40 something foot fin keeled yacht who woke me up by thinking it was clever to steer up a river in N Brittany using the bow thruster…

My final thought is that a good YM candidate is a good seaman – and one who knows their limitations but perhaps a good YM Sail candidate ought to make a good stab at driving a power boat (with a few hints as to what approach to take) – and a good power boater YM Power candidate ought to be able to make some sort of attempt at sailing a boat – (again with a few hints to make sure gear doesn’t get broken and there aren’t too many crash gybes...)

So great idea - but sadly not practical?
 
As far as I can see, there can be no definition of "snob" in the way that, say, "accountant" can be defined, as it is merely a term used by those excluded by virtue of birth, money or class to describe the behaviour of those they feel excluded from. There are similar undefinable terms used on the other side, such as "common" or "vulgar" and these can be used all the way down the social scale. A large proportion of our sailing club is from humble or artisanal stock and they happily describe much of the behaviour they see in those terms.

Ill-mannered behaviour is therefore either "arrogance" when from "above" and "boorishness" when from "below" and it is easier to agree on these than on the one-sided word "snobbery".
 
john_morris_uk said:
I ought to have added to my post that I believe good seamanship includes good manners - at sea or alongside.
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Been reading this thread and the original on the mobo forum.
The originator of the mobo forum thread displays ignorance and arrogance to an incredible degree.
For whats its worth, I own and skipper a sailboat, my professional job is master of a 6500 tonne anchor handling tug with 200 tonnes bollard pull. I have probably forgotton more bits of seamanship than Mr Sandyman ever knew.
I dont brag about it, I've never met a boaty I did not get on with, (but I now know one to avoid).
If I see anyone on any type of boat having a problem, I'm always happy to help them out, and wont pass judgement based on someones in-experience.

Maybe its just the company he keeps, but that attitude leaves a bad taste and does not help anyone
 
john_morris_uk said:
That's an interesting thought.

Of course it isn't really practical to implement it as there isn't a ready source of suitable power boats for potential YM candidates to attempt to manoeuvre, and vice versa. (Well you could achieve it, but not a reasonable cost), and I guess that the RYA would not want to make the process and the cost of the voluntary exam prohibitively expensive or time consuming.

Of course for me as an examiner, a dead give away of an inexperienced person attempting to drive a large twin engine power boat at very slow speeds is when they start using lots of helm. The typically small rudders on a power boat don't have much effect at very slow speeds. As you will know. most twin screwed power boats respond best at very low speeds by judicial use of the throttles – nudging ahead on one or the other or both – perhaps with lots of neutral in between to keep the speed down.

Mind you I also had an urge to get my hands round the neck of the driver of the 40 something foot fin keeled yacht who woke me up by thinking it was clever to steer up a river in N Brittany using the bow thruster…

My final thought is that a good YM candidate is a good seaman – and one who knows their limitations but perhaps a good YM Sail candidate ought to make a good stab at driving a power boat (with a few hints as to what approach to take) – and a good power boater YM Power candidate ought to be able to make some sort of attempt at sailing a boat – (again with a few hints to make sure gear doesn’t get broken and there aren’t too many crash gybes...)

So great idea - but sadly not practical?
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Thanks for the considered reply and sadly I think you're right.

It perhaps could be so for instructors though?

I don't know how I would teach colregs if i couldn't sail, and it allows me to teach mobos to try and anticipate the next tack. Sail instructors similarly need to explain the handling vagaries of mobos to their candidates.
 
nigel1 said:
Been reading this thread and the original on the mobo forum.
The originator of the mobo forum thread displays ignorance and arrogance to an incredible degree.
For whats its worth, I own and skipper a sailboat, my professional job is master of a 6500 tonne anchor handling tug with 200 tonnes bollard pull. I have probably forgotton more bits of seamanship than Mr Sandyman ever knew.
I dont brag about it, I've never met a boaty I did not get on with, (but I now know one to avoid).
If I see anyone on any type of boat having a problem, I'm always happy to help them out, and wont pass judgement based on someones in-experience.

Maybe its just the company he keeps, but that attitude leaves a bad taste and does not help anyone
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Well what can I say?
"Well put sir" should do.
 
nigel1 said:
Been reading this thread and the original on the mobo forum.
The originator of the mobo forum thread displays ignorance and arrogance to an incredible degree.
Click to expand...

That was my view and the reason why I put this thread on, albeit very tongue in cheek as I think most have realised.

I cannot, and never will, understand why some members of these forai insist on trying there very best to constantly drive a wedge between those who choose to sail and those who choose to motor. If as much effort was put into trying to draw the two together there would probably me a lot more happy boaters about.

From a personal point of view, we are relatively new moboers, having been 'at it' for a little over 3 years. During that time we have undertaken training to help our understanding and safety, we have also grasped every opportunity to go out on as many boats as possible, whether they be power or sail. We are courteous to fellow boaters of either persuasion, most wave, some don't, some annoy us, most don't, but we have experienced no animosity from raggies in real life, I therefore can only conclude that it does not really exist, other than inside a few very small minds. Sure folk in boats do daft things from time to time, I know I do, but we're not professionals so we're bound to.

So, come on guys give it a ruddy rest for heavens sake!

Oh, incidentally, Mirrormile will go on the market next spring and her replacement will have sails.
 
For every person who considers himself superior to those around him there are 20 who attribute such thoughts to others on the flimsiest of pretexts. How often do you hear 'he thinks he's better than the rest of us because...' he flies a blue ensign, has a boat bigger than mine, drives a more expensive car, has a large house, went to public school etc etc.
 
jokerboat said:
Hear hear
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Maybe a concerted effort is needed from the majority on these forums.. that's us lot, you know, the good guys who want to get on with people irrespective of their boaty preferences whether that be online or face to face...

we simply post a whole bunch of (20 to be precise)....................

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

..........anytime anyone raises the topic again.. say nothing more than that, let emoticons send them a message it's not worth debating anymore....

don't feed the Trolls so to speak
 
Interestingly, I've met more snobs outside of sailing than I've ever met within the sport. The truth of the matter is that people who regularly take off across the sea, in whatever kind of boat, can't afford to be too snobbish since they never know when they're going to have to call on fellow sailors to help in an emergency. Being snobbish at such moments could prove to be very counter productive!
 
Philiz said:
Would you yacht owners say that the more money you have, the bigger more modern boat you own and the bigger snob you are ? Do you snub your nose at mere Moboers because, in your view, they are not as capable as you?

Anyone who has read my postings will realise I dont have any time for the Mobo/Yottie ****. I make no excuse for this post in response to a similar posting on the Mobo forum, by one of the minority who are constantly trying to drive a wedge between the two pastimes.

Comments welcome.
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In my experience sobbery and it's equally unpleasant opposite, inverse snobbery has little to do with the possesion of money, apparent social standing, or type of boat. They just occur, regrettably.
 
john_morris_uk said:
My final thought is that a good YM candidate is a good seaman – and one who knows their limitations but perhaps a good YM Sail candidate ought to make a good stab at driving a power boat (with a few hints as to what approach to take) – and a good power boater YM Power candidate ought to be able to make some sort of attempt at sailing a boat – (again with a few hints to make sure gear doesn’t get broken and there aren’t too many crash gybes...)
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<nodnod>

Perhaps YM candidates in one discipline should be encouraged to at least do DS in the other - either before or after.

For the record, I did CC, ICC (power), DS (sail), CS exam (sail), then CS exam (power conversion) in that order. I've not quite got round to booking a YM exam yet 'cos I'm swithering over own-boat logistics, etc...
 
Re; the idea that ym sail candidates should spend some time in a powerboat...

I have to say, I think this a bit silly... Remember a yacht under power is nothing more than a single screw underpowered displacement powerboat...

Everyboat has different handling characteristics... Single shaft is different to outdrive is different to long keel to fin to twin shafts to twin shafts to outboard to cats etc etc...

What is not different is the requirement to be safe and courteous and not disruptive to others.... So I don't see how educating every ym in the characteristics of each boat is relevant.. It's about attitude and experience.

I doubt however if we can overcome the base Human trait of impatience, that's what we need to fix. And the biggest problem we have with this is undoubtedly in the mobo brigade, This is compounded by the kobo many times having no idea of how a sailing yacht will behave.. So I do think that a mobo doing ym should have a understanding of sailing vessel bEhaviour. But frankly I think it's irrelevant the other way around....

And btw I speak as someone who has owned a fairline 36 sedan and a sealine s34....
 
Snobbery

I have found it's a matter of enthusiasm; people with classic boats worth squillons have been delighted to show us around their pride & joy, not to show off, but to share...

On the other hand I remember a couple on a Pandora rafted alongside in Salcombe, they wouldn't speak to us as we were a foot longer, and took their stuff ashore every day in a 'Harrods' bag held high for all to see !

I couldn't help wondering exactly how far Harrods was from Salcombe, and what a careful life that bag must have had... :rolleyes:
 
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