yachtmaster

Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

Gludy
All this concern about plotting toward a solid object and not being able to stop worries me. Lets face it if you avoid solid bits like buoys and head straight for say the Marina, then whether you get it rght or wrong, you will eventually have to face a solid object at 10m vis and its called land ie where there sea ends.

Whats the difference I wonder between hitting a buoy or the breakwater or the beach or another vessel in 10m vis.
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

Na - Gludy can walk on water - so he drops his anchor about 1Nm out /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I can see where he is arguing from - why do an exersise during an exam that your unlikely to use IRL, and I don't think anyone disagrees that 5knots in 10m vis is (generally) too fast.
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

don't recall Gludy suggesting that the best thing wd be to head straight for the marina or land. I mustn't have read carefully enough.

I believe that the appropriate authorities should change all buoys & structures to ones made of soft foam, or inflatable type - then no problem, except for other boats maybe.
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

In the harbours/marinsa etc I am often heading towards solid objects without a problem because I know exacly where they are and plan the approach.

In fog, with just 5 to 10 foot in front of my bow before I see it, I really have no time to void it - the only way would be ro stop but i could not stop fast enough. If I put someone on the bow by the time the communicate to me, there is little difference in time.

So to avoid this I creep everywhere but in doing that the accuracy, in tidal current etc, goes anyway.

I am therefore left with trying to find something with the purpose of position confirmation that I really do not want to find within 30 foot of my boat - if I was spot on to one side of it then allowing for the breadth and buoy of th boat ot would be at a maximum 10 feet or so on one side! Probably 5 foot to one side!! That seems really silly to me.

Wit 20m to 30 m vis - I have no problem, 10m vis is just too low to hunt for objects to hit - if you see what I mean. In 10 m vis I did not suggest going into harbout, I would want to try and hang out somehwere, do my best with depth contours and anchor, post hear outs, put the auto horn on and wait until it cleared more.

Assuming I knew the coast, using depth and a bit of common sense I should be able to find a safish place out of the way of traffic.

That may fail me the exam but it is honestly what I would try and do.

I was caught in fog early on in my boating and could not see the bow of my boat. I was the only boat out and the CG was aware of that - the marina told them. the next to last boat was back two hours before and raised the alarm as to how bad it was - he almost went aground on rocks and had been boating for many years. There was a warship leaving harbour crossin in front of us and a loose buoy adrift. We had radar and it was OK, Even in the harbour you could not see the harbout walls either side!!

You could not see the lock gates in front of you!

My crew still conider it the best trip ever - it taught me a healthy respect for the fog. I have been out since and had 20 to 30m which is not a problem, still to be avoided though, but I would hate to be in 10m without radar.

I know that this view of mine has caused the enormous thread but I have heard nothing on it other than to agree that 5 knots 10m is too fast - there was then no answer to my points about the effects of slowing down because even heading at 2 knots with tidal currents and vis down to 10m, there are problems in missing solid objects in front of you.
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

Surely, the point is though that this is purely an exercise. There would be not too much point in real life to try and find a buoy in 10m vis. If you deliberately pass one on your route then great, you have a fix. You wuld more likely be blind navving to a safe anchorage or port but only if access is safe in the conditions.

Make no mistake, blind nav is a very useful exercise in real life, but during training and your exam, to find a buoy is an easy exercise to set up. But of course there is no 'real' fog, so the examiner and crew can avoid hitting the buoy.

Even during the exercise 5 knots is too fast unless travellng against 3 knots of tide.

I have taught this exercise many times and believe me it works and the first time candidates are always amazed when they come up on deck to see where they are, often to be within a few feet of the buoy.

Once again though this is only an exercise though it teaches fundamental skills which can be applied elsewhere.

Another popular exercise is finding an unlit buoy, in the dark, using back bearings and cross bearings. Not that useful in itself you may say, after all how many unlit buoys would you want to find at night. However it teaches the use of bearings and transits to steer a boat on a very fine line and with pinpoint accuracy. So when you need to do it to enter an unlit harbour, you alreay have the skills.
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming I knew the coast, using depth and a bit of common sense I should be able to find a safish place out of the way of traffic.

That may fail me the exam but it is honestly what I would try and do.


[/ QUOTE ]

In real lfe that is what you would probably do in the scenario you set. But if I were your examiner I would then say to you
'Okay, there is no fog, I want you now to stay below and find me this buoy using only compass, depth and time speed distance tables. This is purely an exercise to demonstrate you have the grasp of these navigation skills. Myself and the crew will remain on deck and will tell you of anything we see within 10m of the boat and we will not allow you to hit anything.
Okay may confirm your current position and then we will begin'
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

I accept all those points and I agree with all the excercises and the reasoning behind them .... that has always been my position throught the thread.

I was just asking what would ne the best tactic in real life in a particular situation ...... In the case of the excercise it just may be better for the examiner to state 20 to 30m vis instead of the 5m otherwise they would have some arkward soul like me trying to say what I have been saying for a long, long, very long time. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

"In real lfe that is what you would probably do in the scenario you set. But if I were your examiner I would then say to you
'Okay, there is no fog, I want you now to stay below and find me this buoy using only compass, depth and time speed distance tables. This is purely an exercise to demonstrate you have the grasp of these navigation skills. Myself and the crew will remain on deck and will tell you of anything we see within 10m of the boat and we will not allow you to hit anything.
Okay may confirm your current position and then we will begin' "

Then I would do exactly as asked and I would also think that it was a good excercise to do because I would learn from it and hone my skills ......... I have always supported the excercises and the reasons for them. I would, if I knew about it, probably ask to do the back bearings one as well. All my learning is voluntary and I want to learn as much as possible. Along the way I learn lessons and think through what if's .... all of that, with increasing experience, helps to make me a better skipper.

I have been in the no vis situation and without radar I would do what I have been stating all along. What happned on the thread was my sequence of questions was halted early on and I was challanged as to the right to ask the questions. Even though I stated that I had no issue with the excercises and supported why they were done ... it made no difference - a full blooded Gludy style thread was underway and was going to have its way.
 
What\'s my motivation ?

again, as others say, it's just an exercise.

Someone two miles up the thread suggested finding a buoy, and we/you have become fixated on the idea of doing that. In the solent, loads of buoys, elsewher perhaps not so many. You might want to find a bay, and again, runing along a contour would help do that. indeed, running along a contour could be an excellent way of geting back WITHOUT going near a buoy at all.

In real life there might well be no buoy, nor wd you particularly want to find it. ORm, of course a better idea would be to pass a buoy/cardinal that made a noise/bell as per the chart, listen carefully but don't actually hit it. Again, knowing that the bouy is in 10m and you are staying in 20m means it wd be fine.

I used some of the skills from this excercise once, tho not "blind" it was a narrow dodgy shortcut entrance to a bay, and established from the charts that a particular contour was safe, hence stuck religiously to that contour thru all its twists and turns. Radar wdve been no good and chartplotter wdve taken a while to sort if out and needed super accuracy. So it does work, and it is useful, honest.

You don't need to know the coast imho -
 
Re: What\'s my motivation ?

Nice post TCM and very well put.
[ QUOTE ]
You don't need to know the coast imho

[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agree, all you need is to be able to read a chart, and understand the principals of the exercise.
 
Re: What\'s my motivation ?

TCM
I have never disagreed with the gain from doing the excercise and have throughout the thread always supported it.

I agree you do not need to know the coast as the chart provides what you want but when stuck in fog, its nice to lnow the coast as you know the info not on the chart such as the routes pleasure boats take, where there are no boats expected to be anchored, where you have found reasonable unmarked safe places to anchor etc.

All I am saying there is that local knowledge adds to your understanding and that is not on the chart.

I feel confident going into new harbours etc because the info is all there but if you take a look at the first trip to the Solent thread you will see a mine of local info that is helpful and not on the chart.
 
Re: What\'s my motivation ?

I agree with you there - you can read a chart as often as you like, but until you've actually seen the place you don't fully understand it... your first trip to the location is spent taking in huge amounts of information (via the eyes!), most of which can be discarded ... this is where pilot books come in ...
Once you've been there once or twice it is much easier and you know what to look for and what it looks like so it is generally much more relaxing.. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: What\'s my motivation ?

Yes we do have agreement.

This does not mean to say you cannot go to new places and be safe - if that was the case no one would ever go anywhere. The charts and Alamancs are essential.

However, if looking for a safe place to approach and anchor out of the way of the locals and visitors, I would know where to go far better in my own patch than I would in the Solent.

In fact, there is a huge difference between looking at a chart and planning a safe passage and knowing a place. The brain stores all the real life 3D images etc, the chart can never hope to match that.

For example, I know of places that are safe to anchor but not marked as such -so local knowledge offers me far more choices if stuck.

Also whilst I can and do visit new places all the time, I find it much easier when i have already been and know the ropes as it were.
 
Re: What\'s my motivation ?

Plus there are local wrinkles, such as in the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth area (which covers a reasonable area) you cannot anchor in more than 10m of water without permission from QHM - unless its an emergency.

Rick
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

On one of my earlier replies I said if you get to where you think you are and the helmsman says "cant see it", tell him to go dead slow ahead until he gets eyeball, quite simply really
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

In effect he is cos he says that if there is a route back to the Marina via buoy hoping he would not like to use the buoys for reasons sited, Therefore the route back can only be via contour lines (probably see a buoy then anyway,) and like I said eventually he will be at a solid object like "the land" anyway
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

But I do not see how that is relavent because if we are agreed that to search for solid objects in jusy 10m vis is not on, then that is all there was to it.
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

I am saying that in the situation cited, I would avoid going to the marina and would try to find a safe place using contours but I accept that depends on many variables.
 
Re: Round N+1 with Gludy about the blind nav.

praps you're right' tho I had the impression Gludy thought going anywhere except away from trouble was not wise on 10m vis. However, I won't be checking every post to see if that was the case.

fwiw I asked an rya instructor of many years exp sail & power -

" 10m vis? I'd get out of the way & anchor"

What about buoy hopping? " bol&*^ to that! - get out of the way & anchor"
 
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