Yachtmaster Wars: RYA v IYT.

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

I must confess that my thoughts were more Prince Naseem than Saddam Hussein but what the heck they can both talk up a good fight.

My problem with the RYA's tacktics is just that it is too easy, for those that would manipulate the situation for their own ends, to take control. Combine this with a little complacency, or plain simply taking their eye off the ball. on the part of the RYA & were all screwed. If you'l pardon the expression.

The start of this thread shows that it is all too easy for the RYA to lose the plot a little.

I think a more po-active role would be better for our argument.

Lets face it, the professionals could really use putting their house in order before attacking us, as recent events in the Dover Straight, or thereabouts, illustrate. Is there no way we can point this out to the legislators.

Martin

 

[Opinionated]

Re: Doomed

I disagree. The demos by the pro-hunting lobby, especially clever since they coopted anyone who has a legitimate grievance about farming, footpaths, green-belt etc etc.... have had a considerable influence in diluting the position clearly evidenced by MPs.

Incidentally, picking up a point made by one other respondent, if ONE MILLION people demonstrated pro-hunting, it would still leave the opinions of the other 52 Million unknown... most will be anti, some will be don't know and some will be pro.

Minorities have realised for a long time that if there are enough of you to make a fat demo, you may get your own way. Firefighters included.

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: Doomed

Is that why a total ban on hunting is predicted in the next session? Demonstrations have not made the slightest difference. If there was a well organised demo on hanging there would be massive support fo its return. Would that influence Parliament. No.

(I don't agree with YOUR opinions).

 

[Opinionated]

Re: Doomed

I have no position on hunting, pro or con. I know that we get very emotive persuasion from both sides (unspeakable in pursuit of uneatable vs loss of livelihood and jobs, and why interfere with the right of the individual...). However, as I read it, there will not be a total ban. All this license fudge is going to prevent that, and if the majority of NL MPs force amendments to the contrary, it will get kicked out by the Lords and Tony B will not invoke the Parliament Act. Maybe my crystal ball is clouded on this one, and I am totally wrong, but, hey, who cares?

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

As i've said elsewhere the issues are really quite different between Boating & Fox Hunting & I think that you are blurring the issues by using the Hunting Lobby as an analogy.

I strikes me that what we need is a Jeremy Paxman of the Yachting press to interview the RYA. Hopefully someone who will not let them wriggle out of giving a straight answer, force them the face up to the issues raised here by concerned boaters & persuade them to nail their colours firmly to the mast of "No Compulsory licensing."

How about it YBW you must have one good man for the job amongst you.

Go for it.

Martin

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

As a matter of interest, and I am not trying to make a point here, just pick up on views, while we (I think) are all against licensing (because we assume it will come with a charge as much as any other reason to do with liberty), would it be a valid compromise to have a system where people could be banned from boating? Lets face it, there are some people out there (normally on PWCs) who I would sooner see dragged off and chucked away in chokey.
This would be much along the lines of the 'middle way' group in the fox hunting debate.

 

[coachone]

Re: Doomed

I am sure the RYA would welcome an opportunity to reiterate their policy of "education not legislation" and their opposition to compulsory licences for boats or skippers.
They have had this position for years and it has not changed!

 

[Opinionated]

Re: Doomed

I am NOT against licencing. I (probably) am in favour of it, for the reasons you are putting forward here!!

If one doesn't have a licence, how can you lose it?

I suppose being in favour of licencing is also being in favour of penalties which envisage loss of licence, although I admit to some discomfort at that point. But if it meant getting some of the unbelievable menaces off the water, it wouldn't be all bad. We would need a system of marine JP's to sit in the magistrate's courts!

I have made the pointe elsewhere that I don't bother with a YM ticket, as there is NO PECUNIARY ADVANTAGE in having it. Since it is not a legal requirement, why bother. My dad didn't have a driving licence once, then they introduced a DL and the rest is history. Would you like people on the road who were self-licenced?

PS I have raced yachts for something like 30-40 years, and have never had an insurance claim against me, nor have I made one for self-inflicted damage, nor have I had a lifeboat come out to rescue me. I reckon those are the qualifications that matter (so does my insurance which gives me a pretty good discount for n/c).



(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

Sorry, misread your position. I think almost everyone else is against licences. Personally, I don’t like the idea in principal, but support it in specific cases i.e. just after some idiot cuts me up. Hence the thought.
As to how you can have a negative licence, that could be done like an injunction or anti social order.

‘Corse this could just be me trying to drum up a new line of lucrative work for me and M’learned Friends

 

[claymore]

Re: Doomed

Thats a very learned stance - almost sounds to have come from the inside coachone!!??

regards
Claymore

 

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

I think you are wrong. The reason I am against licensing is because it will put off new blood entering our favourite pastime.

We are nothing if we do not encourage the young to participate.

I must confess I do not like the idea of becoming a provider of finance to a Coastguard Agency who are looking for ways to replace lost funding from Government.

I have no problem with paying for something which offers a real benefit but when you see our Road Tax as an example. Something like £63 Billion a year in revenue & we are supposed to be pleased when the government announce a £3 Billion spend on road improvements over a 10 year period. Is that value for money?

Martin

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

Wrong about what? I thought you and I both agree that licensing is a bad idea, though we had a dispute on another thread about the best tactics for the RYA to adopt to avoid it.

I just wonder, I am not sure myself about this, if the ability to specifically prohibit people who could be proved to be a danger to themselves or others may be a proposal that would destroy the MCA’s strongest argument about the need to save money on rescuing the same idiots all of the time, while, at the same time, avoiding us all going on a database that in due course could be used to tax us à la France.

Good point about the young though.

I'm finding it hard to get that call through to Sadam, you sure he is a barrister?

 

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

I meant that I thought you were wrong about people being anti licensing purely because of the cost. You're right we do agree in principal.

The concept of prohibiting, for want of a better description, dangerous boaters seems to me to be too unwieldy to be practical. A decent system of fines/penalties, would seem to be suitable & workable, using the current legal system.

For example, in extreme cases, a court order banning the miscreant from boating or being in a boat. Alternatively confiscation of the offenders vessel would be sufficient deterrent. A bit of a minefield for Charter agencies but there's always insurance if necessary.

They tell me that Saddam is anything he wants to be, in Iraq.

Martin

 

[Guest]

Re: Doomed

Further to my earlier post, I have just remembered a letter from a member of the MCA (and as a govt employee I cant see him being allowed to write to anyone if he didnt espouse the official view) arguing that licensing was necessary to control unacceptable behaviour by boaters (I cant remember his precise words). He glossed over the issue of policing (how many would the MCA have to employ to do that?) but asserted that it would have to apply to all boaters (though driving licenses are different for different vehicles and not necessary for some). There definitely is an agenda here.

The linkage between our problem and the hunting one is apposite. The hunting ban is as much about old style class enmities as anything else, so how do you think our image sits with the government back benches? Can you imagine JP having much sympathy for us.

With this background the type of backdoor persuasion exercise by the RYA is the only way. Confront the Government on behalf of a minor mainly middle class activity, and you will lose.

Incidentally, in the past I had some peripheral involvement with the RYA through a regional organisation, and I was impressed by the though and effort that went into their work on our behalf. The unfortunate thing is, that if you take the backstairs influence route, you cannot make public to your members what you are doing.

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

I think you’ve got it in one there. But some will always mistake sound and fury for effective action

 

[jimmie]

Re: Doomed

Perhaps the government could put a little bit of tax on marine diesel and use the proceeds from that to fund training for the young? What do you think?

 

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

More likely they would put a lot of tax, on anything they could & use it to pay for community resettlement schemes for Burglars. Maybe with extra bonuses for marine related crime.

Martin