Yachtmaster Wars: RYA v IYT.

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

So you'd rather roll over & play dead than fight for your freedom.

I suspect that you deserve everything that you get!

Martin

 

[Shanty]

Re: The answer surely .

Hi TomE,

In answer to your implied question - I've been learning to sail for the past 40 years. In terms of paper qualifications, I've got as far as YM, but haven't yet felt the urge to go any further.

For me one of the joys of sailing is the many opportunities to learn - mainly in an informal way (i.e through experience). "When you stop learning, you start dying"

The RYA qualifications, I feel, distinguish between two sorts of knowledge - the "must know", and the "nice to know". To take your example, spinnaker handling is a "nice to know" (unless you are into racing). Basic navigation on the other hand is a "must know" in virtually all situations. RYA courses concentrate on the "must know" and aim to give a basic toolkit of skills / knowledge appropriate to a particular type of sailing. Maybe there is an opening for someone to run "nice to know" courses on topics such as spinaker handling.

Tim

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: Doomed

You misunderstand me. It makes absolutely no difference what we do, if "they" decide it, it will happen.

Take foxhunting as an example. The Countryside protest attracted thousands of people onto the streets, far more than yachting is ever likely to do. How much has that deflected the government's intention to stop posh people enjoying themselves - not one bit. I suspect the opposite to be the case - the more we protest, the greater their determination to push it through. Remember the old saying - This is how the world ends, not with a bang but with a whimper. That's how it will be with unlicensed yachting. They'll get us, they always do.

 

[Jacket]

Re: Doomed

Sorry, but I disagree. As long as enough people feel strongly about something, "they" won't do it, as they need us to vote for them, if nothing else. There is no overwealming advantage for the goverment or the country to be gained from licencing casual sailors, so there is no incentive for it to be pushed through against strong opposition.

I don't think foxhunting can be used as an example to support your argument. Sure, thousands of people were in favour of foxhunting, but even more people are against it. Also, true or not, there are the worries of cruelty, bloodsport etc- all very different from yachting.

 

[snooks]

Teaching to sail...

My driving instructor once said "there are a lot of driving instructors that will teach you to pass your test, I'm not going to. I'm going to teach you to drive"

I've been sailing for many years now, I've gained a lot of experience, but I've only got a Coastal Skipper Practical, at the end of the day I could do my Yachtmaster, but I don't feel the need.

I know my limits, I don't need a qualification to tell me what I'm capable of.

I know a few ppl who have done the intensive course, and (IMHO) they have been taught to pass their test, not the experience that years on the water will give you. I agree after just 16 weeks of Zero to Hero course there is no way they could have the on water knowedge and seamanship skills, but it's one of the downfalls of any exam process. Be it driving, riding a motorbike or sailing that is covered by an exam.

All a qualifcation proves is that you could do something once, and not necessarily that you can do it again...let alone the future, how many people that passed O-Level Maths could do it again today??

I know I couldn't

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: Doomed

I hope you're right. All the signals coming out of MCA seem to indicate that making yachtsmen pay is quite high on the agenda. If the government announces this new measure tomorrow, will there be riots in the streets? I don't think so. The majority will support any measure to "make the nobs pay", which is how most people see leisure boaters.

 

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

My concern is that the biggest threat & the most likely Agency to push licencing through comes from the MCA & it's like, Coastguard & Trinity House who see leisure boating as a suitable cash cow to provide funding to replace the moneys that used to be provided by Government.

The RYA seems to try to befriend the legislators, in an effort to steer them away from boating, rather than come out fighting in the serious, hard hitting manner, that is required by the situation that is now developing.

I've said it before "Just because i'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me!"

Martin

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

I disagree, I make a living persuading awkward people called Judges to do what I want, and you do not get anywhere by saying ‘I will fight you to the end because you are an idiot/facist/fanatic’. What you do is say ‘I understand your point of view and can see why you believe control would have benefits’ then, having persuaded them that you are out to make their life easier, you suggest an alternative that gives them most of what they want, without surrendering anything you want.
Believe me, it is the only way. The best Trade Unions in the Country (By which I mean the Law Society and the General Medical Council) have been using this tactic for decades. Compare this to the Firemen and the Miners and see what I mean.
All IMHO of course

 

[alan_d]

Re: Doomed

The General Medical Council is not a Trade Union, but the British Medical Association is (sort of).

I agree with the substantive point, however.

Alan

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

Neither is the RYA. But if the GMC said it was a trade union, do you think it would be so successful?. Like the Law Society it ‘controls the profession’ i.e. leave us alone and we shall sort it out. Pretty much the tactic the RYA are following.

 

[cgull]

My examiner used the benchmark....safe to sail his grandchildren to Jersey. Is this a higher goal?

 

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

All I can say is that perhaps you should offer your services to the RYA.

They seem to be trying your tactics with the success of Bob Marley at a Klu Klux Klan rally.

The Government and the MCA hold them in such high regard they have allowed the competition to sneak in and pinch what the RYA thought was their God given monopoly. We already know their response to this situation.

I suppose that we, as leisure boaters, can only look on in dismay at the effectiveness of our representative body.

Worrying isn't it.

Martin

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

I will work for anyone who pays me. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
But surely the point is that we do not have compulsory registration, this suggests that to date the tactics of the RYA have worked, so why change now? It may make you feel better in the short run being out and out aggressive, but in the medium term it would be a disaster.
And even if there is a conspiracy theory to be found here (which I doubt - do the Government strike you as being bright enough?), if a Government that wants to control everything is trying to undermine the RYA, presumably it is because they are doing too good a job - not because they are doing it badly

 

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

You seem to be missing the point. Its not a matter of a control freak government, trying to oppress the masses, but more a case of " Cut the headline rate of taxation & introduce the charges by the back door". After all those snobby boat owners can afford it can't they. Thats why comparisons with Fox Hunting don't work. The Fox hunting case wasn't about taxation.

If you must look for similar, back door, methods, I would suggest that the ludicrously high rate of Fuel tax & Company Car taxation offer some good options. Popular targets those rotters with their free cars, aren't they.

Thats not a clever government but the action of every government weve had for quite a few decades now.

Martin

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

We are talking about your earlier comment: I quote

“The RYA seems to try to befriend the legislators, in an effort to steer them away from boating, rather than come out fighting in the serious, hard hitting manner, that is required by the situation that is now developing.”

How would this help? Would you expect the Government – any Government – to back away for fear of a ‘hard hitting’ RYA? It would never happen, indeed if the RYA had taken your approach we would all have had compulsory registration years ago.

I am no apologist for the RYA. For the most part I think they are a load of f***s. I also think the YM Course has gone badly downhill – though I think this is because they are struggling with how to incorporate modern technology into the course - but their tactics here are the only ones to follow.

Of Course, I am having a go at your point here, which is just the sort of thing I am saying you should not do (hence we are getting more entrenched), but that is OK because I am arguing on my own time

 

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

All I'm saying is that the RYA's tactick of using the old boys network has really worked for them hasn't it. Weren't they surprised when they were stabbed in the back by their pals in the network.

I feel that those who see boaties as an easy target should be put off at an early stage so that they can apply their attention to someone else.

There you are I've admitted it I'm a nimby.

Martin

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

Maybe they should brief a barrister, a QC, female would be good, to avoid the view we are all men, perhaps from a northern family, to show we are no all southerners, with some contacts in high places and a winning smile. Good idea if she were commercially astute as well – perhaps a property dealing background. But where could they find such a paragon?

 

[bigmart]

Re: Doomed

Now you're getting the idea.

You sound like the ideal person to lead the search but you'd better keep an eye out for a conman. Theres a lot of it about.

Find the right person & it would be like a good marriage. Till Death Us Do Part.

Martin

 

[Guest]

Re: Doomed

Bigmart is correct - the issue here is not the alternative qualification (choice is always better) but the MCA attempt to muscle in on the management of the system. It is inevitable, once they have established their position, that they find they need fees to support their work. And then, after a few high profile accidents, or some carefully chosen statistics, a campaign to make testing and therefore licensing compulsory. More fees, more staff, bigger empire.

My guess is that , in the absence of a UK merchant marine, the coastguard is looking for an area into which it can expand, rather than contraction subject to Treasury penny pinching as has been their lot so far.

And (with the recent drink / boating law introduction as an example) I think that they can expect the support of the Deputy PM. Dont you?

So would our case be helped by hiring the barrister who fits the cv above? I suspect not.

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Doomed

Agreed, but the issue with Bigmart is the best way of stopping this. He thinks the RYA should come out ‘hard hitting’, my guess is that they would then be labelled as only protecting their own interests, and then be sidelined. Again, I have to ask, do you think the Government would back down in fear of a hard hitting RYA? The RYA have little alternative to their current policy.

Anyway, I think I saw just the person to represent them on the TV last night, that Sadam Hussein, he knows how to come out ‘hard hitting’. This I assume is who Bigmart had in mind.