Yachtmaster Wars: RYA v IYT.

[Lynette]

Anyone else see the article in this month's YM on the 'International Yachtmaster Training' organisation that the MCA have licenced to run Yachtmaster courses.

Has anyone here got a qualification with them, or would you consider doing so?

Or are you sticking with the good old RYA?

 

[Fergie]

Lynette
I am on a course at the moment, Tyneside, And they are far more demanding than the RYA. I feel that James Stevens and George Clark (nobby) just show the depth of ARROGANCE the RYA have sunk to,and I also agree to fair competion,They also remind me of the present goverment, both are so buried inside them selfs they have lost sight of those they serve, There are honest people on this forum that would ask the question "where could one get a form for the purchase of a second hand boat" and the answer would come,the RYA. When they get to the site it's Join up (money) or on your bike. the IYT is more methodical and cheaper by far and it's instructor's are NOT any old tom,dick or harry, like you find with the RYA. The good OLD RYA has see it's DAY and Im a POET and I dont KNOW it. Love Michael (Fergie)

 

[rhinorhino]

Interersting, can you give details of how the course is more demanding? Which course are you doing?
Good luck

 

[graham]

I am all for a bit of fair competition but I think people who have qualified as Yachtmaster instructors dont deserve the "any old tom dick and harry "label you have pinned on hundreds of professional people.

 

[charles_reed]

Full marks for enthusiasm and rather less for coherence.

Yes I'd agree that competition is usually good for the consumer, and resented by former monopolists.

I'd also tend to agree that the coin of RYA certification was tending to get debased and this is inferred by the MCA's choice.

Time and the market will tell which organisation is more highly regarded.

My own opinion is that the RYA tried to do a good job but perhaps, in their enthusiasm for popularising the sport, simplified the requirements rather more than was good for the participants.

 

[bedouin]

But won't the market tend towards the easier qualification?

 

[WS175]

intrested to hear what you mean by 'cheaper' where else does their courses - anywhere down south?

 

[charles_reed]

Providing the appropriate authorities regard the two as being of equal value.

However a 1st from Oxbridge tends to be more highly regarded by employers and those in the know, than one from one of the ex-polytechnics, so ill-advisedly turfed into the status of universities and now being pilloried for not being sufficiently "academically excellent".

I am of the opinion that, whether we like it or not, formal qualification will be demanded by insurers as well as governments for people in leisure boating.

 

[salamicollie]

If you go one iyt's web site www.yachtmaster.com and look at the course description the full course is aimed at Class 4 or 5 Deck Officer qual - you have take the MCA approved survival, firefigting and first aid courses not the RYA one day courses plus you have to pass written exams on these and Navigation etc - there is no direct entry like the RYA scheme.

Interesting different emphasis

 

[graham]

Charles ,How have you arrived at your conclusion that the Yachtmaster exam, as overseen by the RYA ,is in anyway less stringent than in years gone by?

I have been sailing and motorboating for over 30 years ,both for leisure and commercially.

I recently assisted as a crew member for someone doing their exam.During the long day of almost continual assesment I soon lost my smug attitude and wondered how I would have coped.

I have no way of knowing how consistently the standards are upheld by other examiners but the lady who succesfully passed on the day I took part in can borrow my boat anytime.

A friend of mine passed a few years back and at the end of the exam the examiner said in his debrief that by the end of the day he has to feel satisfied he would allow his children to sail to France with the candidate as Skipper.

Thats a good enough benchmark for me.

 

[Peppermint]

Different Strokes

I suspect that IYT started out certificating pro sailers where as the RYA bolted commercial endorsement onto the YM qualification.

I further suspect that the YM qualification is devalued in the eyes of many old salts as a result of the "intensive" courses offered to get you from pedestrian to Commercial Yachtmaster in six months.

I'm prepared to allow that the RYA is old, but whats good about them?

How can we British still claim that competion is good for the customer?

 

[aod]

You have Stuck the Wrong Pig!

Does it really matter because both the RYA and the IYT are trying to achieve the same objective of training people up to a level where they are safe and are not going to kill themselves or anybody else.

I would advocate anyone who had an interest to undertake a course with either body safe in the knowledge that they must learn something which helps them and others sail a boat safely.

Equaly neither body can guarantee that their successful candidates are not going to go off and wreak havoc which presents a very real dilemma that the driving community have been struggling with for years.

The Zero to Hero courses are in my opinion the worst example of abuse of the system and something that everyone should be concerned about. The thought that someone can do a 16 week course and be effectively licensed (commercialy endorsed) to take paying clients across the chanel is indeed a dangerous policy to have.

(Interestingly insurance companies are probably way ahead here in that they place little weight on either credential but rather favour proof of experience as a way of calculating risk).

For what it's worth I am much in favour of the adoption of a similar policy to that applied on NI to new learner drivers, but rather than a new yachtmaster (or whatever) displaying a green L plate they have to register a further 5000 miles skippering experience BEFORE, they are afforded the opportunity to have their qualification commercialy endorsed.

The RYA and the IYT have a common goal in that they both provide a training programme aimed at increasing competence and safety. I do hope that in the future they can work together towards a constructive campaign designed to preclude new yachtmasters from obtaining the commercial endorsement without proven experience obtained through sea miles.

If a yachtmaster got on to my boat and started waving his/her commercialy endorsed qualification under my nose my response would be 'That's a start, but what sailing have you done as a skipper'.

After all, I have a family and knowing that the sea doesn't take any prisoners, the thought of a zero to hero yachtmaster with commercial endorsement taking them on a 5 day cruise to the Channel Islands fills me with fear and dread.

As for the rather disparaging comments aired by a previous contributor I must say that with a failure rate of 80% for the yachtmaster instructors course it is indeed a brave individual who questions the validity of the qualification.

 

[WS175]

Re: You have Stuck the Wrong Pig!

I agree that some training is better than nothing, might be dificult for the person who has lots of real experiance but never done the ticket. Didn't help the people in the channel though - wonder who's certificate they hold!

 

[ponapay]

The answer surely .

is that any agency who wishes to train an examine should be licensed by the MCA to train to a fixedd syllabus set by the MCA on behalf of the government.

The examining body should have no direct connection with the trainers or the MCA but have indepenant examiners, again licensed by the MCA.

Competition is great and badly needed to bring the ethos of the RYA up to date. Its monopoly is dangerous.

 

[Shanty]

Re: The answer surely .

This is worrying. Once the MCA set the syllabus and license the examiners, we are only a very small step from requiring that every skipper have a paper qualification - goodbye to "education rather than legislation". Courses will then be about passing the relevant tests, and any thought of training folk to be better sailors will take second place.

Once responsibility for the syllabus passes to a government body, will it necessarily be updated in line with the needs of aspiring yotties taking the courses - or will it reflect the thoughts of ex Merchant Navy MCA folk?

Having said that, I wonder if there needs to be a split between the Competent Crew / Day Skipper / Yachtmaster qualifications, which were originally aimed solely at leisure sailors, and commercial endorsements / qualifications required by charter skippers and crews. The former could then remain in the hands of organisations such as the RYA, whilst the latter, since they can be a legal requirement, maybe have some input from the MCA?

IYT have opened a can of worms here. The danger is that resolving the situation may take us one step nearer to compulsory qualifications. I hope the RYA get their heads out of the sand in time to resolve this satisfactorily.

 

[tome]

Re: The answer surely .

Tim

Don't know how many qualifications you've accumulated but...

RYA run good courses but all focussed on levels of competence. There's still a need for pure sail training, eg spinnaker handling or beyond.

I hate to mention this 'cause it makes me sound like an X-pert. I spent 4 years as a professional and I've done all up to YMO. I stil get confused by spinnakers and will take advice from all comers.

Whatever your level of knowledge there's always someone that knows more. Enjoy your learning and try not to be the opener of any cans.

Best wishes
TomE

 

[seahorse]

Re: The answer surely . But what is the question?

I can't help thinking you have hit the nail on the head. I thought that the RYA was aimed mainly at "amature" sailors but there now seems to be a definite move towards "commercial" ie cargo carrying merchant vessels competancies to be required by "amatures".
Maybe this is "fallout " from the ambulance chasing culture prevalent within the USA. I note the other posts on the channel collisions & qualifications from zeros to heros in X weeks. I feel that this could also be a backdoor move by HMG towards licensing, I understand that this is a similar scenario to the implementation of Driving Licenses for road vehicles.

 

[bigmart]

Re: The answer surely . But what is the question?

The problem is that the MCA drive the legislation & the MCA are Commercial qualification driven.

In Sail Treaining a few years ago they tried to dictate that all vessels irrespective of length had a radio link between the bow & the Helm when manouvering in tight circumstances etc. The couldn't seem to get their heads around the fact that this is a little pointless & perhaps stupid on a vessel of around 30ft. You could have got the impression that, they thought, boats didn't come in that size.

Unless the RYA commit commercial suicide it's hard to see how they can drive the legislation without falling into the arms of the opposition.

I have said in other threads here that I think the problem is that we are too willing to be reasonable for our own good. Unless we fight & argue for absolutely no certification, under any circumstances, those whose only wish is to grab funding for their agencies will drive the legislation through.

If I were a provider of training courses I would be rubbing my hands together with glee.

When this happens you can say goodbye to boating for the masses.

Martin

 

[vyv_cox]

Doomed

"Unless we fight & argue for absolutely no certification, under any circumstances" - a nice idea but I suspect no chance at all. We are surrounded by registration, legislation and regulation in all walks of life. The old ideas that we would do anything we liked and accept any risks are disappearing fast. Technology will enable registration of all boats before long and licenses, light dues, driving tests, bans and drink-sail will follow not far behind. If they can detect every car driving into London (or Oslo, Singapore, and many others) they can easily do it for boats. Enjoy it while you can.

 

[Jacket]

Re: Doomed

They'd better bring in driving licences for bikes first, as far more people are killed and injured through dangerous riding of bikes than are killed at sea.

I fail to see why yachtspeople need licencing, or why the introduction of licences is unavoidable. Generally the only people you can kill are yourself (so it serves you right for being a poor seaman) or your crew (they shouldn't go out with you if you're incompetent). (Obviously, charter skippers and the like are an exception to this)

Yes, if we all keep quiet and say nothing, licenses will be introduced. But kick up a stink and the government will have to listen - after all, a surprisingly large proportion of the population are involved in sailing, and so together we must have a fair bit of clout.