Yachtmaster snippet - anybody explain why?

[Beau Nidle]

Was just reading through the site on the yachtmaster tip thread and found this little snippet

"tie the boat up using one rope for each job and preferably use a round turn and a bowline through the middle of a cleat. NEVER tie the boat up using combined brest and spring ropes or one rope for both springs."

Just wondered if anyone can explain why this might be a problem?

 

[prv]

One rope for each job is simple - because it's a pain in the bum when you need to adjust something and you can't because the end has been turned into something else. You can get away with "turning the end into a spring" in a standard marina berth, though even then I find adjustment is needed often enough that the shortcut is not worth taking, but if it's anything else like mooring alongside a quay or joining a raft then it can be a real embuggerance.

I'm less convinced by the round turn and bowline through the middle of the cleat - that's a perfectly acceptable way, but so are various others. It's considered improper to make up the long end of a line on a cleat with lots of turns and then leave the coil next to it - again it doesn't really matter on a finger pontoon but it does make it a little harder for anyone else's line to share the cleat on an alongside berth. You should have an end secured around (or through) the shore cleat and the turns and coil on board. Anything involving a bowline ashore, rather than a spliced eye, has the benefit that you can always undo it and pull through without touching whatever mess the numpties from three later boats have tied around the cleat on top of you! If you use a spliced eye, make sure to dip it through any existing eyes if sharing a cleat or bollard.

So much for the theory; the only part of that I always follow is one line for one job. The importance of the rest depend on the situation.

Pete

 

[onesea]

As PRV says, although we all do it wrong. Kind of like crossing your hands when driving..

 

[Tomahawk]

One rope for each job means two lenghts about 2 yards long. .. brest lines
Plus two lengths about 10 yards long. .. springs
Or eight yard tails on the brest ropes.


Of course it is totaly different on a harbour wall...

 

[Uricanejack]

Well I guess I would fail.

I frequently use both ends of my lines. And see nothing wrong with it. As long as the line is long enough.
I prefer a round turn with figure 8’s.
May use anything from a round turn to a fisherman’s bend a clove hitch or better yet a rolling hitch.
as the mood takes me and circumstances demand.

Bottom line as long as it is not unsafe why would you fail anything.
If I was examining someone and I saw them do something which I thought had disadvantages I would explain why and show them what I thought would work better and what the advantages were.

 

[Iain C]

...or one rope for both springs.

That seems daft to me...why shouldn't I combine them? I have a sub 30' boat with no midship cleats...the chances of coming alongside and finding a perfectly placed cleat halfway down the boat on a pontoon is slim. I'll usually use one combined spring...no point in having another 35' of spring line to cover a 7' gap on a floating pontoon...and if I need to spring off I'll adjust it all before I go to ensure the minimum amount needs pulling through and there's no chance of it snagging.

I'd also totally disagree with the round turn and a bowline idea. What's the one knot that's a complete pig to release under load in an emergency? A bowline. I do however subscribe to passing an unknown line-taking helper a bowline with the clear instruction to drop it over the cleat and then let go, but I will usually go and change it to an OXXO later.

But then again I'm not a yachtmaster...

 

[stevebrassett]

But then again I'm not a yachtmaster...

No, but you seem to know what you are talking about. I often think that a lot of these "rules" are for guidance when you are starting out. Once you understand why the rules exist and what the possible pitfalls are if you don't apply them, then you can apply a bit of common sense.

 

[prv]

I'd also totally disagree with the round turn and a bowline idea. What's the one knot that's a complete pig to release under load in an emergency? A bowline.

Sure, but the idea is that you handle all your lines from on board, not the shore. So you aren't trying to undo the bowline under load, rather you take most of the turns off the cleat on board and ease away there.

I do however subscribe to passing an unknown line-taking helper a bowline with the clear instruction to drop it over the cleat and then let go, but I will usually go and change it to an OXXO later.

Heh. Quite agree with you re helpers, but if there wasn't someone ashore then I usually end up doing the opposite swap! Step ashore and put turns on the shore cleats to get the boat initially secured, but then I will usually shift things to just an end ashore (spliced eye, bowline, or round the cleat and rolling hitch to itself, depending on situation) and turns and excess warp on board.

Pete

 

[prv]

No, but you seem to know what you are talking about. I often think that a lot of these "rules" are for guidance when you are starting out. Once you understand why the rules exist and what the possible pitfalls are if you don't apply them, then you can apply a bit of common sense.

And it's worth noting that, apart from the man with the beard fetish on the other thread, most RYA examiners seem to be at pains to point out that there is no compulsory "RYA way" and if you can justify what you're doing as safe and efficient then it should be acceptable.

Pete

 

[nigelmercier]

... it can be a real embuggerance...

ROFL! Brilliant.

Has anyone mentioned that if you frequently use a long line for two jobs, the cordage rapidly turns into two shorter lines.

 

[mainsail1]

To me the important point is not to fill the cleat onshore with your mooring rope, making it impossible for someone else to use the same cleat. I therefore prefer a bowline on the onshore end.

 

[flaming]

The point with using bowlines for shore lines is that doing so enables more than one boat to use the cleat without being a mess when the boat with the rope on the bottom wants to leave first. If you OXO on a cleat somewhere like the Folly where the boat ahead or astern is also likely to want to use that cleat, then if you leave first you will have to untie their boat to get to your line. Not the case with a bowline.

And of course you're going to change your last shorelines to slips so you can release them under load from the boat anyway, so the permanent knot used to moor up may as well be a bowline.

 

[Iain C]

I probably should have pointed out that my theory was assuming nothing else using the cleat in question. TBH whenever I've gone to the Folly I've seems I've always been on the outside of a 12 deep raft, usually next to a 45 footer soooo much bigger than me I can't get my shorelines under her bow without a gelcoat chafe-fest :nonchalance:

 

[alant]

Was just reading through the site on the yachtmaster tip thread and found this little snippet

"tie the boat up using one rope for each job and preferably use a round turn and a bowline through the middle of a cleat. NEVER tie the boat up using combined brest and spring ropes or one rope for both springs."

Just wondered if anyone can explain why this might be a problem?

Ever moored on a tidal harbour wall?
Might be OK in a marina, on a pontoon.

 

[DJE]

And it's worth noting that, apart from the man with the beard fetish on the other thread, most RYA examiners seem to be at pains to point out that there is no compulsory "RYA way" and if you can justify what you're doing as safe and efficient then it should be acceptable.

Pete

+1

Every debrief on my exam took the form of:- 1. Did we achieve the objective? Then:- 2. Was there a better way that we could have done it?
As long as the method chosen worked safely then there was no problem.

 

[webcraft]

.
On a small boat with no midship cleats using one line as (eg) breast rope and spring on a pontoon in reasonable weather makes perfect sense.

It is only when you are on a wall in a tidal situation that you really need to be able to adjust all lines from the boat.

As others have said, there is no 'RYA method'.

- W

 

[onesea]

Sure, but the idea is that you handle all your lines from on board, not the shore. So you aren't trying to undo the bowline under load, rather you take most of the turns off the cleat on board and ease away there.

Bugger that I am often single or short handed, Jump ashore drop rope on cleat then start again remooring no thank you. I want to moor up and go to pub! On Floating pontoon for me its one line as headline, then used as spring. If I am worried about filling cleats up I will take the rope back onboard and use doubled already on the slip. Possibly using tail as spring if long enough.

I think some of these things are like putting your boom cover on before you get to the mooring (said not to be wise in an exam as your engine might "fail"!).

They are kind of theoretical perfect world things that you should show you know but maybe not do in practice. My boom cover normally goes on heading up the river on autopilot.

 

[Scillypete]

Why is it a Yachtmaster snippet . . . . . surely its a competent crew snippet as they will be doing the tying up . . . . under the watchful eye of whoever claims to be in charge.

 

[snowleopard]

Just wondered if anyone can explain why this might be a problem?

When doing figure-of-8 turns on a cleat the load must come from the bottom. If you then take the tail and use it for a second job the strain comes on the top and tends to jam the whole lot. Also you can't undo the first line without releasing the second.

A 'proper' mooring job requires 6 lines but few boats have 6 accessible cleats so you have to double up on some or all the cleats. If you tie a bowline through the base of a cleat other lines can use the same cleat and any one can be released without disturbing the others.

Incidentally when putting a shore line with a bowline onto a bollard one is advised to pass the loop upward through anyone else's lines that are already there. It may be necessary when mooring a ship but I've never come across a circumstance where it has really been necessary on cruising boats.

A good tip I picked up in a mag a few years ago: when tying to a ring on a quay, make the bowline very long so the knot is out of reach of any idiots who might think it would be funny to untie you.

 

[snowleopard]

General point on slip ropes- My preference is to lasso cleats fore & aft as I moor up - I never allow crew to jump onto a pontoon. After doing bow/stern lines and springs I slack off the slips but leave them in place. Before departure we cast off all but the slips, get aboard and are ready to go.

The bit about slacking the breast ropes is because I once had the fairlead of a breast rope driven down through the deck as a result of the boat bouncing alongside a low pontoon in a gale. If I need to pull the boat in tight I run an extra pair of breast ropes from the bow & stern furthest from the pontoon so the pull is horizontal not vertical. It's also handy if other boats make positioning of bow & stern ropes difficult.