YACHTMASTER OCEAN shorebased and practical

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barra head

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Hello , I am a commercial workboat skipper who holds MCA Master 200t and also YM Offshore commercially endorsed , however to progress to Master 500 t I need to sit Yachtmaster Ocean shorebased and also the practical side as a pre requisite so my Master 500t cert can be used worldwide, If I do not submit YM Ocean passes with my application then it will be stamped "UK NEAR COASTAL WATERS ONLY" (MGN 496).
As I have never been on a yacht (and know little about them ) any tips advice welcome
many thanks
 
YM Ocean is mostly about astronav and big-scale weather, few other bits of ocean-crossing knowledge.
Very little about operating a sailing vessel.
I'd suggest getting an up to date syllabus from the RYA and a suitable textbook such as Tom Cunliffe's which IIRc is called 'ocean sailing' or similar?
Then talk to sailing schools for the shorebased.
Personally, I didn't find the shorebased hard (although there's a fair wad of stuff to learn) , but then I work in a maths/science environment. Other people on my course were not naturals, IMHO we were lucky to have a really good teacher who could get the ideas across. I think he'd work in adult ed. Some dodgy old yottie who can't actually teach, just recites the book would never have been as good, however many oceans he'd sailed.
So, I would be asking on here for recommendations of individual trainers, unless you read the textbook and it all instantly makes sense to you.
I hope that helps?
 
barra head said:
Hello , I am a commercial workboat skipper who holds MCA Master 200t and also YM Offshore commercially endorsed , however to progress to Master 500 t I need to sit Yachtmaster Ocean shorebased and also the practical side as a pre requisite so my Master 500t cert can be used worldwide, If I do not submit YM Ocean passes with my application then it will be stamped "UK NEAR COASTAL WATERS ONLY" (MGN 496).
As I have never been on a yacht (and know little about them ) any tips advice welcome
many thanks
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One guy used to hold theory classes on the Santander ferry.
Don't think the type of vessel is mandatory, but you must have done the 600 nm trip, 50 nm off any shore, in charge or watchkeeper, etc, details on RYA site. When I started teaching the theory, most students were yachties (some attending because the woodwork class was full), then more recently almost all were pro sailors from 'superyachts' wanting to progress like yourself.
 
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thanks for the reply , dont mind doing the 600nm trip but would prefer to do it on a motor boat is this possible ??, no mention of power driven craft on the rya site ??
 
The RYA website gives all of the information required.

In a nutshell, you need to do an offshore passage of at least 600 mile rhumb line (precise definition on the website) as either skipper or mate. You’ll also need to demonstrate your competence in celestial navigation. At a minimum, this is a sun-run-sun fix and a compass check. You need to submit a voyage narrative and navigational working in advance of an approx 90 minute discussion with a very experienced examiner.

He/she will assess your narrative and sight reduction working and ask absolutely anything he/she fancies about Ocean sailing. Could be trade winds, TRS tactics, crew rota, victualling hygiene and morale, vessel maintenance, water, power or anything else.

If you don’t have a Shorebased course completion certificate you’ll also have to sit a formal exam to test your knowledge. I suspect that this is exactly the same exam taken from the Shorebased course.

Some sailing schools run combined Shorebased and practical courses / qualifying passages but they are not cheap.

As an example, southwest Ireland to Cape Finistere, acrsss Biscay meets the Qualifying passage criteria.
 
Thanks for your reply , slight problem being how you can become skipper /mate on a yacht for the qualifying passage when i have never set foot in a yacht before ?? , i cannot find anywhere on the RYA website mention of use of a power driven vessel to complete the qualifying passage ?
 
barra head said:
thanks for the reply , dont mind doing the 600nm trip but would prefer to do it on a motor boat is this possible ??, no mention of power driven craft on the rya site ??
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I’d give RYA a quick call. Given that your YM Offshore is power (as you’ve said tha you’ve never been on a yacht) I can’t imagine you would have a problem doing it on a motor boat.

The Qualifying Passage criteria also includes a minimum time at sea. Bear in mind that our sailing boats rock and roll at about 6kts. If you cruise much faster you’ll probably have to cover more than the 600M thumb line.
 
I am an RYA Ocean Examiner and hopefully can clarify a couple of things.

You can do the passage on a power vessel, but you need to be mate or skipper and be able to demonstrate that you has a significant part in the planning and execution of the passage plan. The criteria for the passage are all laid out on the RYA web site.

All candidates must have completed a qualifying passage within the past 10 years as skipper or mate in sole charge of a watch on a suitable vessel, which meets the following criteria:
The candidate was fully involved in the planning of the passage, including selection of the route, the navigational plan, checking the material condition of the vessel and her equipment, storing with spare gear, water and victuals and organising the watch-keeping routine.
During the passage a minimum non-stop distance of 600 miles must have been run by the log, the yacht must have been at sea continuously for at least 96 hours and the yacht must have been more than 50 miles from land or charted objects capable of being used for navigation/position fixing while sailing a distance of at least 200 miles.
To be eligible as an ocean qualifying passage the distance between departure and arrival points by the shortest navigable route must be more than 600 mile.
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See http://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/exams/Pages/qualifying-passages.aspx for more details
 
Thanks for the reply John , i still dont see any mention of power driven craft on the RyA website , do you know of any companies who offer the qualifying passage to be taken in a power driven vessel ?
 
barra head said:
Thanks for the reply John , i still dont see any mention of power driven craft on the RyA website , do you know of any companies who offer the qualifying passage to be taken in a power driven vessel ?
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I think it would be unusual for a power driven leisure vessel to be capable of a qualifying passage, mostly they have a range of 200-250 miles. The exceptions are the trawler style boats that are designed for long distance. You'd need to take your own sextant as I'd be surprised to find one in the inventory of many. Perhaps calling round the delivery companies offering your services as mate on a long distance delivery might find you a suitable berth. What cemented my astro skill was doing a passage on one of the Jubilee Sailing Trust ships from Bermuda to Southampton, it carried a number of sextants and had an enthusiastic second officer - but I did that within weeks of completing the shore based Ocean classes.

I'm surprised that the qualifications you seek cant be done within the commercial MCA career path ?
 
Not really any reason why the OP could not do the qualifying passage on a sail boat as watch leader. Clearly he is experienced at watchkeeping etc. so the only tricky bit is knowing which strings to pull and when. A suitably knowledgable watch mate could advise on this. Even if a power boat passage was available it would be hideously expensive unless you wrangled a ride as delivery crew.
 
Quiddle said:
Not really any reason why the OP could not do the qualifying passage on a sail boat as watch leader. Clearly he is experienced at watchkeeping etc. so the only tricky bit is knowing which strings to pull and when. A suitably knowledgable watch mate could advise on this. Even if a power boat passage was available it would be hideously expensive unless you wrangled a ride as delivery crew.
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Many of my more recent trips on sailing vessels, have involved motoring 1000+ nm, due to high pressure system (Azores) or breeze on nose.
 
As said above in a few posts, the distances involved might well end up making it necessary for you to do the trip on a sailing boat.

Whilst learning to trim sails properly takes a long time, the basics aren't too difficult. The RYA doesn't really teach much about sail trim on their courses, but you could probably get a sailing school to give you a good grounding in a weekend.

From the point of view of whichever skipper you get to take you it will be a risk. He won't want to come up on deck at the end of your watch to find the boat overcanvassed and damage already starting to happen, but you should have the weather knowledge to avoid that so a school should be able to teach you the other half. Inexperienced crew do damage sails, and part of a longer voyage is managing wear and tear on the sails, but again you could learn some of that.

Another idea to help would be to take say and experienced racer as crew, who wants miles or a longer voyage under his or her belt, and have that person share the watch with you. Sufficient racers out there who maybe come from a dinghy background and know an awful lot about sail trimming and sail handling but a lot less about other aspects.
 
Thanks for the reply , unfortunately i dont have any desire to learn to trim sails etc , the transition from 200t to 500t master costs £20000 not taking into account your own time on courses (around 90days ) , Therefore i would prefer to do the practical side by fast craft if possible,
 
barra head said:
Thanks for the reply , unfortunately i dont have any desire to learn to trim sails etc , the transition from 200t to 500t master costs £20000 not taking into account your own time on courses (around 90days ) , Therefore i would prefer to do the practical side by fast craft if possible,
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But you have to do a 96 hr passage to get a YMO so why does the boat speed matter? 600 Nm at 6 knts = 100 hrs. If you want to do YMO then sail is the obvious choice but, as others have said, hard to believe there isn't another route to the qualification you want.
 
Tuppence worth....

It will be appreciated that the RYA/DoT ( MCA ) Ocean syllabus was designed with a different 'customer' in mind. The OP sounds like a professional using the Regs, quite properly, towards an objective. That objective and its significant responsibilities suggest, perhaps demand, a very responsible approach to the capabilities to be acquired.

In my understanding, the ship-handling is likely to be 'less of an issue'. More important is the quality of decision-making when well beyond the reach of helo assistance. I suspect I am not wrong when I offer that that central capacity is at the core of what an 'Ocean Examiner' is seeking to judge. And IMHO those individuals are selected 'cos they really do know their onions. They have a habit of making their recommendations, at this level, turn out to be about right.

Of course, part of it is demonstrated by 'knowledge'. For example, how to do a 'check for compass deviation' by means of astro, each day. But 'why?'.... Also, how to determine position, and consequently, course, when only astro is left available. ( Understanding of the seas and what they sometimes demand is quite central to this ). That is perhaps almost peripheral. What is also being assessed is the candidate's approach to the 'knowledge' and the demonstrated attitude and 'capability'.

F'r example, the complex subject of ocean met is introduced, but in the constraints of a 40-odd hour course, 'the book can only just be opened'.... The big constraint is time available for tuition in a course, and underlying that is the fervent hope ( expectation? ) that the candidate YM(O) , having progressed thus far, has enough 'nous' to realise there is much, much more to learn and is of the calibre to get on and do just that.

Those examiners will be very well aware of the responsibilities for others' lives they are underwriting by recommending a 'Pass'. As quite recent news events attest.
 
zoidberg said:
Tuppence worth....

It will be appreciated that the RYA/DoT ( MCA ) Ocean syllabus was designed with a different 'customer' in mind. The OP sounds like a professional using the Regs, quite properly, towards an objective. That objective and its significant responsibilities suggest, perhaps demand, a very responsible approach to the capabilities to be acquired.

In my understanding, the ship-handling is likely to be 'less of an issue'. More important is the quality of decision-making when well beyond the reach of helo assistance. I suspect I am not wrong when I offer that that central capacity is at the core of what an 'Ocean Examiner' is seeking to judge. And IMHO those individuals are selected 'cos they really do know their onions. They have a habit of making their recommendations, at this level, turn out to be about right.

Of course, part of it is demonstrated by 'knowledge'. For example, how to do a 'check for compass deviation' by means of astro, each day. But 'why?'.... Also, how to determine position, and consequently, course, when only astro is left available. ( Understanding of the seas and what they sometimes demand is quite central to this ). That is perhaps almost peripheral. What is also being assessed is the candidate's approach to the 'knowledge' and the demonstrated attitude and 'capability'.

F'r example, the complex subject of ocean met is introduced, but in the constraints of a 40-odd hour course, 'the book can only just be opened'.... The big constraint is time available for tuition in a course, and underlying that is the fervent hope ( expectation? ) that the candidate YM(O) , having progressed thus far, has enough 'nous' to realise there is much, much more to learn and is of the calibre to get on and do just that.

Those examiners will be very well aware of the responsibilities for others' lives they are underwriting by recommending a 'Pass'. As quite recent news events attest.
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What "news events" are you referring to?
 
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