Yachtmaster MOB Method?

[oldmanofthehills]

H&S probably precludes the adoption of a genuine MOB, and to haul aboard a 12stone ‘dummy’ equivalent would be expensive to use and a bit of a problem to manhandle overboard, so really the only practical option is the cushion or other floating item to enable the candidate to show ability to handle the boat in close quarters during an emergency MOB, the examiner discussed with me the various methods of getting a MOB aboard during my exam whilst I retrieved the rather sodden cockpit cushion that represented he MOB.

Having tried real drills with wetsuited 16st rugby player in water as a club excercise, we bought a times 6 handy billy so Navigator could get me or another out by attaching it to spinacker halliard. We also discovered that long keeled boat does not turn fast enough to use dragging rope and float to "lasso" the casualty. So its the common boathook required at contact with the casualty

Having tried to assist in a kayakers mayday, I was alarmed at the the risk of a yacht crushing the casualty in rollers and leaved a launch could assist. As heavy weather is on of the greatest risks of MOB thats a touch worrying.

safety leashes are the way to go except in flat seas and harbours

 

[penberth3]

Good point. So.... question for the instructors.

What's the point of testing prospective YM's on their ability to swing the boat in challenging circumstances if you don't test their ability to get a person out of the water?

That's my point. It isn't a MoB exercise, it's only a manoevering exercise, it doesn't prove anyone's competence in a MoB situation.

 

[goeasy123]

That's my point. It isn't a MoB exercise, it's only a manoevering exercise, it doesn't prove anyone's competence in a MoB situation.

Exactly. ...and my point is that the RYA is not doing it's best in being relevant. If the point is to save lives a maneuvering exercise doesn't do it.

There should be as much attention paid to keeping folks on the boat in the first place as there is to getting someone out of the water.

 

[capnsensible]

Exactly. ...and my point is that the RYA is not doing it's best in being relevant. If the point is to save lives a maneuvering exercise doesn't do it.

There should be as much attention paid to keeping folks on the boat in the first place as there is to getting someone out of the water.

Part of any mob training at recognised schools include coaching on recovery of a person in the water.

There is, of course, strict protocols for the wearing of safety harnesses etc.

But as an analogy, if someone asks how to fix a puncture, it's no use saying 'avoid getting a puncture'.

 

[capnsensible]

Good point. So.... question for the instructors.

What's the point of testing prospective YM's on their ability to swing the boat in challenging circumstances if you don't test their ability to get a person out of the water?

It's clearly unsafe to do so. Too big a risk. But its lways discussed at length which is as far as you can go.

However, on one of my school yachts I had a helicopter rescue strop. It was ideal training when used with a well secured mooring warp tied to a fender. During an exam I had prepped our candidates for,an ex forces helicopter pilot got them to do exactly that. But these things are best practised in benign conditions for safety. So it's gonna be artificial, but valuable.

 

[Daydream believer]

For a two man crew, it seems to be the best chance of rescue lies with he/she left on board. A PLB that allows that is my vote.
ACR AISLink MOB Personal Beacon | Force 4 Chandlery

One can have all the markers available, but if the crew cannot get the boat stationary & alongside the casualty then it will not do much good, unless one is relying on others to do the job. I do not think that is quite the aim of the YM test.

 

[Poignard]

Is reach>tack>reach no longer approved of?

 

[penberth3]

It's clearly unsafe to do so. Too big a risk. But its lways discussed at length which is as far as you can go.....

How is a practice MOB recovery unsafe? I would argue it's unsafe NOT to get first-hand experience of how difficult it is.

 

[goeasy123]

I was motivated to ask the question because as a couple new to sailing me and my wife need to know a range of apparently important things. We've done Day Skippers each, but frankly the delivery was poor, variable and the content largely irrelevant or incomplete for our purposes. I've crewed with YM examiners that spent a good deal of the time slating the course content and structure for the same reasons I have issues.

From a customer point of view the prescriptive nature of the content and a reported lack of consistency in delivery concerns me. The MOB situation is just one of many issues.

I'm doing the YM Offshore theory online at present. I'd like to do the practical sometime, but I'm advised that I need to know and practice a few key boat handling procedures in advance. Specifically, MOB, close quarter boat handling under sail and blind navigating. I haven't been sailing long, but I have been sailing a lot and have done all these things for real (including recovering a 15 stone man from the Mersey). I have friends and there are a few YouTube horror stories of competent and experienced sailors that have failed because they didn't 'jump through the hoop' the right way.

W.r.t. penberth3's wise obesrvation, many race series require crews to practice real MOB's. Many marine professions require it. At a recent dinner in the marina cafe two of the 4 couples had invested in PLB's. The rest where debating potential purchases. None of the assembled had worked out how to get their partner out of the water and for one of the couples, that had already purchased PLB's apiece, the wife wasn't capable of the MOB maneuver. It reminds me of the Dutch woman that fetched up in the Carribean after losing her husband over board in the Atlantic. She had to be rescued because she didn't know how to sail the boat. I believe he was a YM.

 

[capnsensible]

How is a practice MOB recovery unsafe? I would argue it's unsafe NOT to get first-hand experience of how difficult it is.

Because there is a clear risk of injury to the person in the water.

Consider how sea survival courses are regulated. They aren't conducted in a howling gale are they?

 

[Daydream believer]

Is reach>tack>reach no longer approved of?

One certainly would not be able to heave to in the conventional way by backing the jib with a self tacking jib unless one could clip it to one side. that could be dodgy because it would then later have to be released & involve trips forward in awkward situations. So not really a justifiable option & reach, tack, reach might be one way

When I did my YM theory I found a couple of the things a little strange. I taught myself to navigate with just a compass & echo sounder- no log- in the early 70s. So a lot of things like calculating effect cross current was done on basic knowledge of simple rules. Bit like the 12ths rule for tide heights

In the final exam i was near the end & getting tired & hot. I suddenly had total brain fade in the last question about plotting a course & was stuck. I sat there & thought " How did I do this years ago" i would do it in my head & forget tables graphs etc & use common sense. So I did just that. I wrote down the course to steer 222 degrees. The answer was 221 degrees. the examiner asked how I did it, I explained- I had recovered composure by then & he gave me a pass.
The week before a different examiner had failed me for not following the RYA method & when I spoke to the training school owner & said there was no point in my continuing. He disagreed. I had the right answers & that i had shown that i knew how to navigate. That , in his opinion, was what the exam was about. He changed the earlier fail to 95% pass

He said it would be the same in a practical. An examiner would be looking at the way a student operated & the understanding of what he was doing to acheive the goals. The RYA procedures are needed because they devised for those who have never done a certain task before.

 

[penberth3]

Because there is a clear risk of injury to the person in the water.

So use a weighted dummy, you dummy!!! That's why such things exist.

 

[capnsensible]

So use a weighted dummy, you dummy!!! That's why such things exist.

I have done. Have you?

 

[penberth3]

I have done. Have you?

Yes.

 

[capnsensible]

Yes.

Well done. Not easy is it?

Excellent to plan it in as part of a fast track yachtmaster course. Or perhaps with sea survival.

 

[BobPrell]

So use a weighted dummy, ____________!!! That's why such things exist.

Wow, they do too.

I had thought of ways to improvise one. Briefly, put part-filled plastic bottles and drums inside a set of overalls.

I put "weighted rescue dummy" into my fave search engine.

They can be bought at various levels of sophistication, and expense, of course.

The high-end sailing schools really should have them.

 

[thinwater]

... p.s. To directly address what you have written: our instructor would have said 'And what would you do if/when the engine fails?'.

And I would argue with a modern, well maintained diesel, that it is no more likely than for the engine in your car to chose THAT EXACT moment to fail. The vast, vast majority of boats don't even have sails.

[I'm not sayin' you shouldn't practice under sail for a number of reasons (can be faster, engine may have insufficient power, and it's fun to practice), but I'm guessing most of the time you could not make a sane or convincing argument to a non-sailor for not use your engine as an adjunct.]

 

[john_morris_uk]

And I would argue with a modern, well maintained diesel, that it is no more likely than for the engine in your car to chose THAT EXACT moment to fail. The vast, vast majority of boats don't even have sails.

[I'm not sayin' you shouldn't practice under sail for a number of reasons (can be faster, engine may have insufficient power, and it's fun to practice), but I'm guessing most of the time you could not make a sane or convincing argument to a non-sailor for not use your engine as an adjunct.]

Sadly over my forty or fifty years of sailing offshore, I can remember plenty of times where ‘well maintained’ diesel engines weren’t available. Lots of reasons: ropes round props, diesel bug, etc. On one memorable trip, the boat that I was skipper of (and which had been maintained at no expense spared!) lost diesel propulsion because the studs holding the gearbox to the engine sheared. (It was a recentyew Yanmar engine)

lf anyone really thinks yacht engines are as reliable as you suggest, I’m wondering how long and how far they’ve sailed.

I agree that modern diesel engines are reasonably reliable, but MOB under sail in a yachting exam tells me (as an examiner) lots about the ability of the candidate.

Sailing under control up to an object in the water and being almost stopped when you’re there is also a skill that might very well be needed in real life. I’m not sure it’ll ever be a faster option than using the engine though.

 

[flaming]

And I would argue with a modern, well maintained diesel, that it is no more likely than for the engine in your car to chose THAT EXACT moment to fail. The vast, vast majority of boats don't even have sails.

[I'm not sayin' you shouldn't practice under sail for a number of reasons (can be faster, engine may have insufficient power, and it's fun to practice), but I'm guessing most of the time you could not make a sane or convincing argument to a non-sailor for not use your engine as an adjunct.]

The thing about disasters at sea, and MOB in particular, is that they are not always singular events. It's not just "oh, Bob has fallen over the side," but "We had hooked a line with our prop, and Bob was leaning over to investigate and splash". Or "That kite drop went bad, and there are many ropes and half a sail in the water, Bob was trying to help and lost his footing and fell in I started the engine but one of those ropes wrapped itself around the prop,"

The interesting thing I've found over the years was that when I did YM I'd not done very much racing at all, just grown up cruising. MOB under sail in a F6 during the exam was the single most difficult bit of sailing I had ever done at that point. Took me a good couple of attempts to get back to the fender.

A couple of years back, we were out in pretty breezy conditions, about 25 knots, and after racing someone lost a hat. I decided to do a MOB under sail for practice and a bit of fun, and because he really liked his hat. All those years of holding the boat on the line and tacking for small gaps etc had really, really sharpened up my boat handling. Frankly the task of sailing up to the hat and stopping the boat next to it under sail was just so much easier than it was without that background of racing.

When we manoeuvre a boat under engine with the goal of putting it in a specific place we tend to do so on flat water in a harbour, not with the boat bouncing off waves. When we manoeuvre a boat under sail looking for gaps on a start line etc, we're doing so on open water. Because of that experience, in bouncy conditions I'm not 100% sure I'd be faster under engine than I would under sail, and especially in the new boat which is pretty light and has twin rudders, so no propwash to kick the bow against the wind.

 

[awol]

Racing, picking up a mooring under sail, possibly lots of practice with a bucket and fender all hone the skills necessary for picking up a MOB. Even sailing onto a pontoon helps. Only real MOB I've had was racing under spinnaker - let fly, no knots in the lines and it was gone. Suprising thing was that despite the shackles and rings it floated and was recovered after we got the bowman back on board. I can't remember whether I did a figure of 8 or a tack/reach.
Only time I tried with an RNLI dummy I was far too cocky and didn't stop the boat dead - almost wrenched my arm off!