Yachtmaster milage

[Neil]

It's my understanding that the guidelines in respect of sea mileage are required to guarantee a minimum level of competence in a No. of areas. For example the requirement for 5 passages over 60nm is a measure of competence in seamanship and navigation - what difference does it make what the size of the boat it is? two that have involved overnight passages - a test of navigation and the ability to understand navigation lights; again what difference the size of the boat? Mooring and pick up techniques are similar - practice on a small boat and be tested on a bigger one.

The need to satisfy the demands of commercial endorsements is cutting the legs of from underneath the RYA - it's core baser of amateur sailors

 

[lw395]

Would you entrust your 40ft, ten tonne boat to someone who had only experience of mooring and sailing a 20ft boat?
Would you accept experience of sailing a boat that is easy to manage single handed or two-up as qualifying someone to manage a fully crewed boat with 6 people to organise?

For sure the lines are arbitrary.
But you could make a case for the barrier being too low.

It's not that hard or expensive to do the mileage and hours.

If you just want a CofC for smaller boats, you can do that.
But YM is a recognised qualification for bigger boats as well.
It's not that small boat are not as good, or their skippers are somehow always inferior, different sizes of boat are different in many ways, including how the gear works and how they are handled alongside or at close quarters.
Personally I think people should aspire to sailing a variety of boats, I've learned different things in various boats from Sonatas to 80ft maxis.

 

[jac]

Would you entrust your 40ft, ten tonne boat to someone who had only experience of mooring and sailing a 20ft boat?
Would you accept experience of sailing a boat that is easy to manage single handed or two-up as qualifying someone to manage a fully crewed boat with 6 people to organise?

For sure the lines are arbitrary.
But you could make a case for the barrier being too low.

It's not that hard or expensive to do the mileage and hours.

If you just want a CofC for smaller boats, you can do that.
But YM is a recognised qualification for bigger boats as well.
It's not that small boat are not as good, or their skippers are somehow always inferior, different sizes of boat are different in many ways, including how the gear works and how they are handled alongside or at close quarters.
Personally I think people should aspire to sailing a variety of boats, I've learned different things in various boats from Sonatas to 80ft maxis.

Different things though. Manoeuvring a 40 or 50 footer in a tight space is a greater test of skill than a 20 footer of course but surely that is just 1 part of the syllabus and can surely be assessed as part of the exam. The rest of the trip it surely makes no difference what the length - the bigger boat has bigger sails, winches etc and is probably more sophisticated but getting say a caprice across to say spain is probably a bigger test that taking a brand new AWB to spain.

I was talking to someone at work on Monday who is off to assist a friend bring a Sadler 34 back from the Windies. On the passage out there, they had a self-confessed newby on board who gained over 3000 miles logged split between 2 legs of that trip. That guy with a few weeks sailing is now only a there and back from the Solent to Cherbourg to qualify for YM. He may very well not pass as doesn't have the all round knowledge but it seems odd that someone who basically sat in cockpit across the atlantic is on paper closer to YM than someone who ha spent years sailing ( and perhaps racing with a full crew) a 29 footer and who has forgotten more than the newby knows.

 

[lw395]

The trouble is, if you put all the 'big boat' competence bits solely in the exam, it is going to need a lot more than a day.
A newby with an ocean crossing would still need some passages as skipper, there is more to the experience required than miles.
At least he has been out of sight of land, and probably had the experience of being out of reach of the RNLI and probably out of touch with the rest of the world, I didn't get that until after I'd done YM.
There's also the 'human' elements of working with other people for extended times to keep the boat running and so forth.

I might prefer that newby as crew/watch leader over some quite experienced inshore sailors of many years' racing.

It can never be perfect, but because it's the best there is, it is respected.
But it's not compulsory, if it doesn't apply to your size of boat, you don't have to get involved.

But I recommend it. For all its faults it's worth doing IMHO.
Make the effort to get the miles on other people's boats.
Do a prep week, sail with some new people, it's fun.
I learned stuff that I didn't realise I didn't know.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'm not sure that the offshore capabilities of the boat are what drives the requirement. I suspect it's more related to jimbaerselman's point in post #41. A small boat you can push about manually and do a lot of things without the need for mechanical advantage. A bigger, heavier boat often requires more involved use of warps for take offs and landings in anything but a flat calm and most sail handling requires a mechanical advantage and a certain degree of crew co-ordination.

On the other hand, larger boats are more likely to have in-mast furling, electric winches, bow thrusters and other things which make the handling significantly easier. Perhaps it's just me, but I suspect that my 26-footer with long keel and 9hp engine is a darn sight harder to get into marine berths than most modern larger boats.

Whilst there is no minimum crewing requirement in qualifying sea time, I suspect that the rationale is down to crewing requirements. Given that the exam requires a minimum of two crew in addition to the candidate and that part of the exam is how the candidate manages the crew, a small boat of less than 7m which is easier to manage with little or no crew will not provide the experience the RYA is looking for in candidates.

The RYA expereince requirement is for miles sailed, is it not? You don't have to have done them with crew, or even as skipper. Miles covered as tea maker in a Contessa 32 count; miles covered as skipper with two crew in a Contessa 26 don't.

If they want particular experience they should say so, not make assumptions based on the length of boat.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Would you entrust your 40ft, ten tonne boat to someone who had only experience of mooring and sailing a 20ft boat?

Who had also passed an exam including boat handling? Why not? I'd be a darn sight more reluctant to entrust my 26' long-keeler to someone who only had experience of a 36' fin keeler with big engine and bow thruster.

Would you accept experience of sailing a boat that is easy to manage single handed or two-up as qualifying someone to manage a fully crewed boat with 6 people to organise?

Why should YM qualifications be restricted to boats which need six people to sail them? What proportion of us generally sail with five crew members?

 

[lw395]

On the other hand, larger boats are more likely to have in-mast furling, electric winches, bow thrusters and other things which make the handling significantly easier. Perhaps it's just me, but I suspect that my 26-footer with long keel and 9hp engine is a darn sight harder to get into marine berths than most modern larger boats.



The RYA expereince requirement is for miles sailed, is it not? You don't have to have done them with crew, or even as skipper. Miles covered as tea maker in a Contessa 32 count; miles covered as skipper with two crew in a Contessa 26 don't.

If they want particular experience they should say so, not make assumptions based on the length of boat.

What the RYA says:
Minimum seatime
50 days, 2,500 miles including at least 5 passages over 60 miles measured along the rhumb line from the port of departure to the destination, acting as skipper for at least two of these passages and including two which have involved overnight passages. 5 days experience as skipper. At least half this mileage and passages must be in tidal waters. All qualifying seatime must be within 10 years prior to the exam.


In the time I ticked all those boxes, I also sailed smaller boats. 50 days and 2,500 miles over 10 years is not hard to do on other people's boats.

In many ways my dinghy is harder to sail tan my yacht, but I would not expect dinghy sailing hours to count.
Have you done any trips on bigger boats with more crew?
Did you not notice any different skills needed? Or different experience gained?

I did.

When I did the YM exam, the sailing was the easy bit, managing a boat full of relative strangers is an important part of it.

""The Yachtmaster™ Offshore is competent to skipper a cruising yacht on any passage during which the yacht is no more than 150 miles from harbour.""

 

[awol]

Why should YM qualifications be restricted to boats which need six people to sail them? What proportion of us generally sail with five crew members?

If "should" means it is mandatory then it may need 6 but you are only allowed 2

from RYA website
The boat used must be between 7.5m (24ft) and 24m (79ft) waterline length and be in sound, seaworthy condition, equipped to the standard set out in the RYA Boat Safety Handbook 2nd Edition (code G103). The boat must be equipped with a full up to date set of charts and navigational publications along with working instruments and either plotter or GPS. In addition to the candidate there should be two crew on board as the examiner will not take part in the management of the boat during the exam.

 

[JumbleDuck]

In the time I ticked all those boxes, I also sailed smaller boats. 50 days and 2,500 miles over 10 years is not hard to do on other people's boats.

Why would I want to sail other people's boats for fifty days? I have my own!

In many ways my dinghy is harder to sail tan my yacht, but I would not expect dinghy sailing hours to count.
Have you done any trips on bigger boats with more crew?
Did you not notice any different skills needed? Or different experience gained?

I have sailed my own boats almost exclusively for the past 30 years. If I was interested in getting a YM ticket, I'd want it for my sort of sailing, not for a sort of sailing I never do.

When I did the YM exam, the sailing was the easy bit, managing a boat full of relative strangers is an important part of it.

And yet only 10% of prior experience has to be as skipper. I don't doubt that managing crew is an important skill, but it's assessed during the exam, as you say.

I think it's a great shame that the RYA promotes boat size inflation. By effectively defining "yacht" as "10m upwards", they are excluding a lot of people.

 

[jac]

Why would I want to sail other people's boats for fifty days? I have my own!



I have sailed my own boats almost exclusively for the past 30 years. If I was interested in getting a YM ticket, I'd want it for my sort of sailing, not for a sort of sailing I never do.



And yet only 10% of prior experience has to be as skipper. I don't doubt that managing crew is an important skill, but it's assessed during the exam, as you say.

I think it's a great shame that the RYA promotes boat size inflation. By effectively defining "yacht" as "10m upwards", they are excluding a lot of people.

+lots

I agree that if you don't own a boat, achieving that in 10 years is doable but feels odd to exclude it.

I'm also surprised that experience over 10 years ago doesn't count. you still know it. I understand that recent makes sense but as they do with the size tables I would split it and have say 2500 total - 50% to be within the last 5 years.

 

[lw395]

+lots

I agree that if you don't own a boat, achieving that in 10 years is doable but feels odd to exclude it.

I'm also surprised that experience over 10 years ago doesn't count. you still know it. I understand that recent makes sense but as they do with the size tables I would split it and have say 2500 total - 50% to be within the last 5 years.

A lot of my 'best' experience was outside the 10 year rule.
I'd done the theory over 15 years before the exam, it was a shock to realise what I had to re-learn.
Some people might be a lot older and less fit than they were 20 years ago, again you have to draw the line somewhere.
I have no doubt that a few of the lines get stretched now and then.

Why do the people who are happy to sail their own smaller boats care so much about the YM criteria?
You're saying lots of things are wrong, but obviously still want it?

Not sure the limits are entirely down to the RYA either, if you are testing people's skill in offshore craft, it possibly has to be craft capable of being coded for such, meeting the RCD for such?
Anyway, why not ask the RYA? they have a letters page in their comic or you could signal them in morse or something?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why do the people who are happy to sail their own smaller boats care so much about the YM criteria?

Because we're the ones they're excluding, maybe?

You're saying lots of things are wrong, but obviously still want it?

It's clear that the RYA no longer thinks the YM is a qualification for people who sail in boats under 10m, including mine. I'm not averse to the idea of a qualification, but I'm b*gg*red if I can see why I should want one that clearly is not aimed at my type of sailing any more.

 

[YachtAllegro]

You're saying lots of things are wrong, but obviously still want it?

Well, its a good test of boat handling and crew management. I learnt masses from doing my Coastal Skipper course and then exam about 15 years ago. Almost all my qualifying time at that point had been gained single handing a (21') Corribee. I never went on to do Yachtmaster, partly because I hadn't done any long enough passages out of sight of land.

Which brings me to a second point - the thing about length is its rather neatly self-correcting. If I had managed to do the miles to qualify for Yachtmaster in a Corribee I'd almost certainly be a far better sailor than someone who'd clocked them up (at twice the speed and considerably more comfort) in a 40 footer. And, equally, I'd not be nearly as good a sailor as someone who'd managed the feat of clocking them up in a 14' Wayfarer. Once the RYA have set a distance I don't think they need to worry about length at all, and I think its a bit insulting to people who manage very impressive feats of seamanship in very small boats.

Cheers
Patrick

 

[JumbleDuck]

Which brings me to a second point - the thing about length is its rather neatly self-correcting. If I had managed to do the miles to qualify for Yachtmaster in a Corribee I'd almost certainly be a far better sailor than someone who'd clocked them up (at twice the speed and considerably more comfort) in a 40 footer. And, equally, I'd not be nearly as good a sailor as someone who'd managed the feat of clocking them up in a 14' Wayfarer. Once the RYA have set a distance I don't think they need to worry about length at all, and I think its a bit insulting to people who manage very impressive feats of seamanship in very small boats.

+1,000,000. Well said.

 

[dom]

Which brings me to a second point - the thing about length is its rather neatly self-correcting. ..............Once the RYA have set a distance I don't think they need to worry about length at all, and I think its a bit insulting to people who manage very impressive feats of seamanship in very small boats.

There was a thread on this topic a while back with the point being made that small boats are too cramped for an examiner to be comfortable on. I would however take a bet that many younger examiners who would be only too delighted to go out on a Corribee, and I fully agree with you that in many ways smaller boats are harder to sail than bigger ones. Easier to maneuver in a marina mind

 

[jerrytug]

Well, its a good test of boat handling and crew management. I learnt masses from doing my Coastal Skipper course and then exam about 15 years ago. Almost all my qualifying time at that point had been gained single handing a (21') Corribee. I never went on to do Yachtmaster, partly because I hadn't done any long enough passages out of sight of land.

Which brings me to a second point - the thing about length is its rather neatly self-correcting. If I had managed to do the miles to qualify for Yachtmaster in a Corribee I'd almost certainly be a far better sailor than someone who'd clocked them up (at twice the speed and considerably more comfort) in a 40 footer. And, equally, I'd not be nearly as good a sailor as someone who'd managed the feat of clocking them up in a 14' Wayfarer. Once the RYA have set a distance I don't think they need to worry about length at all, and I think its a bit insulting to people who manage very impressive feats of seamanship in very small boats.

Cheers
Patrick

Excellent points.

 

[Resolution]

Why would I want to sail other people's boats for fifty days? I have my own!



I have sailed my own boats almost exclusively for the past 30 years. If I was interested in getting a YM ticket, I'd want it for my sort of sailing, not for a sort of sailing I never do.



And yet only 10% of prior experience has to be as skipper. I don't doubt that managing crew is an important skill, but it's assessed during the exam, as you say.

I think it's a great shame that the RYA promotes boat size inflation. By effectively defining "yacht" as "10m upwards", they are excluding a lot of people.

What I cannot understand is why you are so roused by the RYA rules. The main purpose of exams is to show third parties what your levels of knowledge or skill are. In the boating world exam qualifications might be needed to permit a charterer to charter a yacht, or a professional skipper to skipper a client's yacht. If you are exclusively sailing your own yacht then you don't need an external qualification.

What am I missing?

 

[lpdsn]

What I cannot understand is why you are so roused by the RYA rules. The main purpose of exams is to show third parties what your levels of knowledge or skill are. In the boating world exam qualifications might be needed to permit a charterer to charter a yacht, or a professional skipper to skipper a client's yacht. If you are exclusively sailing your own yacht then you don't need an external qualification.

What am I missing?

Because the exam is there and it is a challenge and allows you to show yourself you've reached a certain standard. The exam is actually a good learning experience too, but that is beside the point.

And one day, you might not be able to sail your own boat without an external qualification.

It all boils down to the same circular argument that has been going on for a few days now.

1) There are people who sails smaller boats who want to sit the exam in that boat, or something similar, and they should be allowed to do so. They want an amateur YM cert, not a commercial ticket allowing them to skipper a millionaires yacht or a windfarm workboat or anything else like that.

2) Experience and an exam passed on a 25' boat doesn't equip the skipper to manage a 75' boat, but it does qualify him to do so. Therefore YM exams are tending to be done on 40'+ boats to produce people that can be commercially endorsed for the workboat/millionaire's yacht.

The RYA seem to have realised there is an issue and have been tinkering around the edges without solving the problem. Some people in the small category are (rightly) miffed that they're being excluded from what they want.

Much more quietly, there's probably some multi-millionaire somewhere thinking, I best check that new skipper I've employed has sailed something bigger than a Sadler 25 before.

 

[dom]

What I cannot understand is why you are so roused by the RYA rules. The main purpose of exams is to show third parties what your levels of knowledge or skill are. In the boating world exam qualifications might be needed to permit a charterer to charter a yacht, or a professional skipper to skipper a client's yacht. If you are exclusively sailing your own yacht then you don't need an external qualification.

What am I missing?

It's a fact that many charter companies require a YM for insurance purposes. It is also a fact that the YM qualifaction is not universally regarded as a de facto sign of sailing competence. It's my and I think a good few others' opinion that the RYA is more than a little snobbish towards small boat sailors. Snobbishness obey's one of Newton's famous laws - it produces an equal and opposite reaction! You'll need the duck to explain the dets!

 

[Resolution]

It's a fact that many charter companies require a YM for insurance purposes. It is also a fact that the YM qualifaction is not universally regarded as a de facto sign of sailing competence. It's my and I think a good few others' opinion that the RYA is more than a little snobbish towards small boat sailors. Snobbishness obey's one of Newton's famous laws - it produces an equal and opposite reaction! You'll need the duck to explain the dets!

Is there a distinction here between commercial and private sailing? I have always found my ICC qualification accepted by charter companies when I have been bareboat chartering. Are there some that require a YM and reject the ICC?
Whereas if you wish to be paid by a charter company to skipper their yachts when crewed by punters in the UK, then MCA codes come into play and you will need a commercially endorsed qualification, IIRC.