Yacht size and licence requirements - UK?

[Cookie Jar]

"Flag of convenience" is not a term that is only associated with large yachts (or ships). There are many other reasons why ordinary mortals with ordinary boats may want to register in a country other than their own.

Absolutely right!
I have a Dutch flag and I live in the Czech Republic.
Why? Because the amount of fees, separate inspections in separate entities of the boat and engine, plus the annual fee I would have to pay just to have the "right" to fly a Czech flag is beyond absurd. And every year it would be a "play it again, Sam".

Unfortunately, registering it under my nationality (Portugal) would be even a bigger nightmare...

But having a flag of convenience does NOT give me a "get-out-of-jail-free-card", since all boats ARE subject to local laws, if and when the "host" State so decides*. Local licence requirements and mandatory safety equipment MUST be met! The only thing I have avoided were the inspections, boat classification requirements and annual fees. Period.

*exceptions are made to (some) US registered boats, where the boat is actually goverment "property" and therefore cannot be held by another country without causing a diplomatic conflict.
In Portugal, there were numerous cases of people registering boats with a flag of convenience with the sole purpose of trying to avoid holding a licence... and that ened up the with boat seized until a licence was presented to the authorities.

 

[H35]

OK, but it would still be illegal unless you moved yo UK

Illegal only if not VAT-paid in Norway. Not because of operating it without a licence. The D5LA is ONLY valid for Norwegian registered boats. It's not valid for boats registered in any other countries.

 

[Tranona]

Absolutely right!



But having a flag of convenience does NOT give me a "get-out-of-jail-free-card", since all boats ARE subject to local laws, if and when the "host" State so decides*. Local licence requirements and mandatory safety equipment MUST be met! The only thing I have avoided were the inspections, boat classification requirements and annual fees. Period.

Once again that is not strictly a representation of reality. While coastal states may impose their local laws on foreign flag boats, the reality is that most (including almost all European states) do not, respecting one of the key underlying principles of maritime law which is "comity". that is respecting the laws of other countries - in this case the flag state. The only country in Europe of any note that does not do this completely is Portugal, and only for the last 3/4 years. even then it only applies to foreign flag boats that are deemed resident, essentially there for more than 180 days in a year.

There are literally thousands of British registered boats in the Med for example, many of them permanently that are not subject to local registration requirements, although may be subject to other parts of the law.

This freedom is of course a worry come Brexit, but as this particular aspect is outside EU law (like most things maritime) it will be up to individual states whether they impose any new restrictions. My guess iss they won't as the trend if anything has been the other way with relaxation of restrictions in Spain for example.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Another side note regarding licences:

the ICC is not a licence... it is a "document" (a certificate as the name says) that represents an agreement between a few EU countries. It's a recommended thing to have if you will be sailing in one of the countries that signed the agreement (Resolution 40) and some countries that did not sign it may even accept it... but that's about it.

AFAIK it's not EU-related, but is issued under the authority of the UN.

 

[Cookie Jar]

Once again that is not strictly a representation of reality. (...) The only country in Europe of any note that does not do this completely is Portugal, and only for the last 3/4 years. even then it only applies to foreign flag boats that are deemed resident, essentially there for more than 180 days in a year.

I'm sorry Tranona, but what you are claiming since a couple of posts, is purely based on theory and wishful-expected comity and reciprocal behaviour of States in the matter of leisure boating is far, far away from the "representation of reality" that you speak of. What is supposed to be "expected" is (here yes, in reality), quite different than what you actually get, so you are either living in a different EU; you were never a permanent resident -owning a boat- in your host country; or you have had the luck to deal with very nice officials whenever you needed a stamp of officialdom.

Myself and a few other "foreign boat owners" can tell you (and prove to you on written "officialdom" papers from both governments and EU comission), that the reality you claim must be a paralel one.

There are literally thousands of British registered boats in the Med for example, many of them permanently that are not subject to local registration requirements, although may be subject to other parts of the law.

In the end... That's all I have been saying from the beginning... besides registration and its inherent fees, I am (or they are) subject to the local law if and when the host state so decides. Licence included.

 

[Tranona]

I'm sorry Tranona, but what you are claiming since a couple of posts, is purely based on theory and wishful-expected comity and reciprocal behaviour of States in the matter of leisure boating is far, far away from the "representation of reality" that you speak of. What is supposed to be "expected" is (here yes, in reality), quite different than what you actually get, so you are either living in a different EU; you were never a permanent resident -owning a boat- in your host country; or you have had the luck to deal with very nice officials whenever you needed a stamp of officialdom.

Myself and a few other "foreign boat owners" can tell you (and prove to you on written "officialdom" papers from both governments and EU comission), that the reality you claim must be a paralel one.



In the end... That's all I have been saying from the beginning... besides registration and its inherent fees, I am (or they are) subject to the local law if and when the host state so decides. Licence included.

Show me documentary evidence of what you say is true. It simply is not. I have travelled all over the Med in my boat and kept it for several years in Greece, as have many thousands of others without ever having been asked to comply with local regulations on registration, licencing equipment etc.

I repeat, this is nothing to do with the EU with the exception of VAT and CE marking on new boats. There are no EU regulations on maritime matters, everything being covered at state level. That is why there is so much variation from state to state for local boats and owners.

The only exception of the seawater coastal states is Portugal and the change in the law was significant to the extent that there were high level discussion with the RYA to clarify what the law was.

Inland waterways are different and there is much more regulation and a requirement for all to comply, but that is because these waters are either "privately" owned (as in much of the UK), or have statutory management bodies responsible for regulation. Even then none of it is EU, but local and differs from state to state.

So, I am afraid it is you that is imagining a different world from the rest of us. Individual states do have the power to impose their laws, but choose in a maritime context not to use it.

 

[Cookie Jar]

I have travelled all over the Med in my boat and kept it for several years in Greece, as have many thousands of others without ever having been asked to comply with local regulations on registration, licencing equipment etc.

Are you actually reading what I am writing, or are you disagreeing just for the sake of it?

Fine... you have travelled all over the Med and surrounding waters. Great for you (and I do envy you on that)...but irrelevant to this discussion.
Were you ever a permanent resident in a foreign country, owned a boat in that country... and that boat was flying a flag from another country? If so, then we can carry on discussing and I will gladly send you "proof" of what I am claiming.

 

[Tranona]

Are you actually reading what I am writing, or are you disagreeing just for the sake of it?

Fine... you have travelled all over the Med and surrounding waters. Great for you (and I do envy you on that)...but irrelevant to this discussion.
Were you ever a permanent resident in a foreign country, owned a boat in that country... and that boat was flying a flag from another country? If so, then we can carry on discussing and I will gladly send you "proof" of what I am claiming.

I am reading what you are writing. But you are generalising from a specific that only applies to a very small number of people. Your "problem" is not the norm but an exception because of your circumstances.

So, if you were resident in the UK (irrespective of your nationality) you could register your boat on the SSR and that is all you have to do. You do not need a licence and have no restrictions on the use of your boat. Your boat and you will be covered in just the same way as I am and you will experience no difficulty in moving freely around Europe (and beyond).

Your problems arise because you live in a state that is very restrictive - but it is nothing to do with the EU. Your solution is Dutch registration so your boat is covered by Dutch maritime law and you can move around Europe in exactly the same way as all the other Dutch boats.

Think your problem is that you have experiences of states that have restrictions and regulations that colour your perception of what it is like in other states. I know that many other states such as Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Greece etc have more rigid regimes for their own citizens, but once they leave territorial waters they are in exactly the same situation as UK owners.

The principle of comity is generally shared by all states, but it is not a right that is enforceable, but there are some states that do impose at least some of their local requirements on visitors, but as i explained earlier very few of these are in Europe.

 

[BrianH]

Once again that is not strictly a representation of reality. While coastal states may impose their local laws on foreign flag boats, the reality is that most (including almost all European states) do not, respecting one of the key underlying principles of maritime law which is "comity". that is respecting the laws of other countries - in this case the flag state. The only country in Europe of any note that does not do this completely is Portugal, and only for the last 3/4 years. even then it only applies to foreign flag boats that are deemed resident, essentially there for more than 180 days in a year.

Not just Portugal but, as you did include in an earlier post, Croatia disregards comity by insisting on all visiting boats have licensing (competence and VHF) and insurance that are checked when declaring in before clearance is issued.
Edit: Rereading the above I see I missed the point regarding Portugal. [note to self - read posts properly before responding to them]

It would seem that your old stomping ground is trending in the same direction too.

Even more so in Greece since the new DEKPA was introduced this year. The ICC is mandatory for all boat owners registering in Greece (allowing for the usual misinterpretation of rules by certain port police). Owners with higher qualifications are being told they cannot register without one. Thread on Liveaboard on this topic.

Reference comments by macd, I too have seen many, many megayachts in the Med. without any English-speakers aboard among the guests and/or owners but sporting the red ensign (undefaced). Could have been charterers, of course, but I do wonder having seen so many. I photographed this one, Parsifal III, as it passed me between the islands of Brac and Hvar in Croatia, at the time owned by Danish national Kim Vibe-Peterson and registered in London.

 

[macd]

The principle of comity is generally shared by all states, but it is not a right that is enforceable, but there are some states that do impose at least some of their local requirements on visitors, but as i explained earlier very few of these are in Europe.

...and perhaps the most familiar example to British sailors of comity being disregarded is the French requirement that boats in their waters be registered. Without this, the Small Ships Register would not have been created.

 

[vyv_cox]

...and perhaps the most familiar example to British sailors of comity being disregarded is the French requirement that boats in their waters be registered. Without this, the Small Ships Register would not have been created.

But isn't it the case that the need to prove that a British boat is British, by having a means of registration that previously did not exist, is to absolve it of the need to comply with the French equipment requirements? (Of course, we all carry a heliograph anyway, don't we?)

 

[Tranona]

...and perhaps the most familiar example to British sailors of comity being disregarded is the French requirement that boats in their waters be registered. Without this, the Small Ships Register would not have been created.

Yes, but that is effectively the case with all states - just that the french made a particular issue of it because most of their visitors at the time were from the UK or Italy. The agreement with Italy is different because there is no register for boats under 10m so insurance documents are accepted. The issue is about showing that the boat is British or Italian (or any other state) rather than being on a register.

You may recall a few years ago endless arguments on here about the status in France of the SSR and whether French law allowed penalties for non possession, and particularly whether another form of identification (as per Italy) would be acceptable. Inconclusive as there was no way of testing and French authorities insisted they did have the legal power. The argument is very persuasive given that the SSR was introduced specifically at the request of the French government.

 

[Tranona]

Not just Portugal but, as you did include in an earlier post, Croatia disregards comity by insisting on all visiting boats have licensing (competence and VHF) and insurance that are checked when declaring in before clearance is issued.
Edit: Rereading the above I see I missed the point regarding Portugal. [note to self - read posts properly before responding to them]

It would seem that your old stomping ground is trending in the same direction too.


Reference comments by macd, I too have seen many, many megayachts in the Med. without any English-speakers aboard among the guests and/or owners but sporting the red ensign (undefaced). Could have been charterers, of course, but I do wonder having seen so many. I photographed this one, Parsifal III, as it passed me between the islands of Brac and Hvar in Croatia, at the time owned by Danish national Kim Vibe-Peterson and registered in London.

Although there are those trends moving towards more control on visitors, they are not actually requiring visitors to comply with local laws - for example passing a Greek competence test or subject to Greek equipment requirements. They are, as in the case of croatia accepting flag state qualifications (there is an extensive list) so in fact are embracing comity.

The Greek situation is driven by a different agenda which is trying to account for all boats in greek waters so that they can be taxed. Adding competence (via an ICC) is an extension of the previous policy of requiring it to skipper a Greek registered charter boat. Given the basic nature of the ICC this is more a box ticking exercise.

Interestingly Spain has gone the other way. Up to a couple of years ago if you were resident in Spain you had to register your boat in Spain and pass the Spanish tests (in Spanish!). However, in an effort to reduce the numbers residing illegally, they removed that requirement (and eased the application of matriculation taxes) on those taking up residence. So you can be resident in Spain with a UK registered boat and no restrictions.

BTW lovely boat. Would guess that Danish registration is not friendly to that type of boat, its owner and the type of use he puts it to!

 

[macd]

Yes, but that is effectively the case with all states...

Of course. But it rather shreds the notion that if you don't need to comply with "x" in home (UK) waters, you don't need to comply anywhere. Comity, as you wrote, is a very movable feast.

You may recall a few years ago endless arguments on here about the status in France of the SSR and whether French law allowed penalties for non possession, and particularly whether another form of identification (as per Italy) would be acceptable. Inconclusive as there was no way of testing and French authorities insisted they did have the legal power. The argument is very persuasive given that the SSR was introduced specifically at the request of the French government.

I recall it well. The forum probably put more hot air into the matter than the French and British governments, combined.

 

[macd]

But isn't it the case that the need to prove that a British boat is British, by having a means of registration that previously did not exist, is to absolve it of the need to comply with the French equipment requirements? (Of course, we all carry a heliograph anyway, don't we?)

Sorry, Vyv, missed your post earlier.
Indeed that's right, but isn't there something sublimely bureaucratic in breaching comity in order to support it? The result is a bit moot, anyway: regarding out-of-date flares, for instance.

 

[BrianH]

Although there are those trends moving towards more control on visitors, they are not actually requiring visitors to comply with local laws - for example passing a Greek competence test or subject to Greek equipment requirements. They are, as in the case of croatia accepting flag state qualifications (there is an extensive list) so in fact are embracing comity.

I suppose that is one way to see it. I would interpret comity as recognising the flag state's regulations - or lack of in the case of the UK's non-mandatory competence qualification - rather than accepting some of its non-compulsory certification.

Even laid-back Italy has just introduced (or decided to enforce existing) regulations for EU-flagged vessels departing for non-Schengen countries (e.g. Croatia). A document delivered to my boat instructs that I must clear out - and declare back in on returning - with the passports of all on board to the Border Police based in the nearest 'Stazione Carabinieri', which is, for my large area of many lagoon-based marinas, inconvenient to access, being in the middle of the large tourist town situated at the lagoon entrance and nowhere near the harbour.

This is, no doubt, an attempt to try to control the disastrous influx of illegal migrants flooding into Italy.

BTW lovely boat. Would guess that Danish registration is not friendly to that type of boat, its owner and the type of use he puts it to!

She could be yours for a mere €20'500'000. A snip compared to her 2005 Perini Navi build price of €80m; a 2012 complete refit and then subsequent price-drop from €50m. And I thought I had a depreciation problem with my old HR.

 

[BrianH]

Even laid-back Italy has just introduced (or decided to enforce existing) regulations for EU-flagged vessels departing for non-Schengen countries (e.g. Croatia). A document delivered to my boat instructs that I must clear out - and declare back in on returning - with the passports of all on board to the Border Police based in the nearest 'Stazione Carabinieri', which is, for my large area of many lagoon-based marinas, inconvenient to access, being in the middle of the large tourist town situated at the lagoon entrance and nowhere near the harbour.

Just had some clarification. It's nothing to do with Italy but Croatia that needs the documentation of clearing out from another EU country, there is no requirement to report to the Italian authorities on return. All crew must be available with passports for the document to be issued. No idea what happens if no document is forthcoming on Croatian clearing in, probably entry will be refused.

 

[RichardS]

Just had some clarification. It's nothing to do with Italy but Croatia that needs the documentation of clearing out from another EU country, there is no requirement to report to the Italian authorities on return. All crew must be available with passports for the document to be issued. No idea what happens if no document is forthcoming on Croatian clearing in, probably entry will be refused.

That sounds like bad news. I wonder if that will apply to boats which are kept in Croatia and have a Croatian vignette? We often leave Italy and clear into Croatia and will be doing the same this year and have never been asked for any clear-out documentation by the Croatian Port Police, presumably because they know that the Italians do not issue any!

Do you have a link of any kind?

Richard

 

[rex]

Licence only required above 24m load line length.

 

[BrianH]

That sounds like bad news. I wonder if that will apply to boats which are kept in Croatia and have a Croatian vignette? We often leave Italy and clear into Croatia and will be doing the same this year and have never been asked for any clear-out documentation by the Croatian Port Police, presumably because they know that the Italians do not issue any!

Do you have a link of any kind?

Richard

Sorry Richard, no link, only a one page hard-copy in Italian and German that was delivered to all boats in my marina, Aprilia Marittima, last week.

Visiting the Carabiniere office in Lignano yesterday had all the makings of a classic comic opera. The desk officer was blowing his top with an Italian skipper who wished to get this document for his departure at the coming weekend.
Officer: Let me see your passport.
Skipper: I don't have it with me, here is my driving licence.
Officer: You are sailing alone?
Skipper: No, my wife will be with me.
Officer: Where is your wife?
Skipper: At home in Milan.
Officer: I must have all who will be on board before me with passports. Next please.

You have indicated before that by being based in Croatia you are not mandated to provide what we who arrive from elsewhere on our own keels need to provide - ship registration, certificate of competence, VHF certificate, insurance certificate - to obtain clearance. So probably you will not be bothered for this extra silly piece of paper.