tyce
Well-Known Member
anyone ever done one or have sensible opinions.
yacht ownership programs with the likes of sunsail
- Thread starter tyce
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Norman_E
Well-Known Member
I looked at the idea, but was very unsure whether it was a good deal or not, and decided against. All the charter companies seem to do it. The boat I bought from a German charter company was in fact owned by an individual, and I am sure that some company's deals are better than others and each company has its own preferred boat manufacturer, so I suggest you get information from as many charter companies as possible before deciding. Another point to consider is how well the company looks after its boats. I saw some pretty tatty ex-charter yachts when I was looking to buy.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
I looked at this is some detail a few years back.
The answer depends on what you are trying to achieve. As a purely financial investment it is nonsense, and similarly as a way of getting a "cheap boat" it is also not worthwhile.
Where it can work is as a way of subsidizing your own sailing. When I looked at it the sunsail style sponsorship made sense provided that you could use several week sailing yourself (but more than I could do being in a full time job).
The UK based schemes where you use the boat more as your own and only charter it out when you are not using it does provide a subsidy for your UK-based sailing, but probably would not get to break-even
The answer depends on what you are trying to achieve. As a purely financial investment it is nonsense, and similarly as a way of getting a "cheap boat" it is also not worthwhile.
Where it can work is as a way of subsidizing your own sailing. When I looked at it the sunsail style sponsorship made sense provided that you could use several week sailing yourself (but more than I could do being in a full time job).
The UK based schemes where you use the boat more as your own and only charter it out when you are not using it does provide a subsidy for your UK-based sailing, but probably would not get to break-even
homa
Well-Known Member
Get yourself a January 2007 copy of Yachting Monthly.
There's a 3 page artical by someone who has done exactly this with Sunsail.
There's a 3 page artical by someone who has done exactly this with Sunsail.
kevread
New Member
have used sunsail a couple of times in the med, the boats that were near the end of their useful life for chartering seemed to be getting lots of complaints from the crews and constantly being boarded by the flot engineer. some of the probs were quiet serious and ruined one couples holiday afloat.
MoodySabre
Well-Known Member
A friend of mine did it with Sunsail in Greece. After 4 or 5 years the boat reverted to him and it was in fantastic condition with new sails and hardly a scratch. He has left the boat at Vounaki on a fully serviced basis and has sold three shares. Reckons he got his share for nothing. In the meantime has had a few weeks a year free sailing all over the place Greece, Thailand, Caribbean.
Very happy with it and has recommended it to others who were contemplating it. He thinks the deal might be slightly different now but still worth looking at.
Very happy with it and has recommended it to others who were contemplating it. He thinks the deal might be slightly different now but still worth looking at.
Oliveoyl
Well-Known Member
We are in the process of doing this with Kiriacoulis, via Yacht Fractions. Boat is being built at the momenet, and delivery France-Corfu planned for early April.
We we already spending quite a lot on 4 weeks chartering a year, and looked at buyind second hand, then realised that mooring/maintenance/insurance would in fact increase the cost per week. Popeye's retired, but I'm still on the treadmill, so until we both have the time to be semi liveaboard, outright purchase wasn't for us.
Under the Kiriacoulis scheme, we have 6 weeks use from this year until 2010, when the boat becomes ours.
Having done several charters over the past few years, our general experience has been positive - the boats are well maintained by professionals. Main problems have occurred with accessories such as dinghy and outboard. So we're not too scared about becoming full owners at the end of 4 seasons, eesp as the deal includes new sails.
This package suited us perfectly, and happened to coincide with the maturity of an insurance policy, which provided a good up front payment, so we should be able to meet the 6 monthly instalments even on Popeye's pension!
Another big plus with the big companies (Sunsail, Kiriacoulis..) is that you can take your owners' weeks on any similar boat at any of their bases, so we can spend 4 seasons
sampling the Med before we return full time.
A downside, hidden in the small print, is that the boat is not VAT paid, and in October 2010 we will have to pay Greek VAT (19%) on the residual value (estmate 55% of new).Unless ownership transfers to a non EU resident. We have a good friend in Bosnia who would "sell" us our boat, which we could then "import" to eg Cyprus.
We we already spending quite a lot on 4 weeks chartering a year, and looked at buyind second hand, then realised that mooring/maintenance/insurance would in fact increase the cost per week. Popeye's retired, but I'm still on the treadmill, so until we both have the time to be semi liveaboard, outright purchase wasn't for us.
Under the Kiriacoulis scheme, we have 6 weeks use from this year until 2010, when the boat becomes ours.
Having done several charters over the past few years, our general experience has been positive - the boats are well maintained by professionals. Main problems have occurred with accessories such as dinghy and outboard. So we're not too scared about becoming full owners at the end of 4 seasons, eesp as the deal includes new sails.
This package suited us perfectly, and happened to coincide with the maturity of an insurance policy, which provided a good up front payment, so we should be able to meet the 6 monthly instalments even on Popeye's pension!
Another big plus with the big companies (Sunsail, Kiriacoulis..) is that you can take your owners' weeks on any similar boat at any of their bases, so we can spend 4 seasons
sampling the Med before we return full time.
A downside, hidden in the small print, is that the boat is not VAT paid, and in October 2010 we will have to pay Greek VAT (19%) on the residual value (estmate 55% of new).Unless ownership transfers to a non EU resident. We have a good friend in Bosnia who would "sell" us our boat, which we could then "import" to eg Cyprus.
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
A downside, hidden in the small print, is that the boat is not VAT paid, and in October 2010 we will have to pay Greek VAT (19%) on the residual value (estmate 55% of new).Unless ownership transfers to a non EU resident. We have a good friend in Bosnia who would "sell" us our boat, which we could then "import" to eg Cyprus.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've been in Belgium too long /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
There's a way to do things - and then there's a way round it.
Personally: I like it /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
A downside, hidden in the small print, is that the boat is not VAT paid, and in October 2010 we will have to pay Greek VAT (19%) on the residual value (estmate 55% of new).Unless ownership transfers to a non EU resident. We have a good friend in Bosnia who would "sell" us our boat, which we could then "import" to eg Cyprus.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've been in Belgium too long /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
There's a way to do things - and then there's a way round it.
Personally: I like it /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
The reason charter companies use this type of finance is so that they escape two financial costs - which are transferred to the (potential) owner.
1. Interest on the cash they would have had to borrow (you'll be losing the potential income from that cash instead)
2. Depreciation (the resale value of the boat in 4-5 years time, even when it's very nicely re-furbished, is going to be some 35% to 50% lower, including inflation. And don't forget to allow additionally for the lower value of a non-VAT paid boat - a further 10% or so of the original cost.)
Given these sums, you can work out the equivalent cost to you of the amount of sailing you'll be getting from the operating company. £80,000 boat, 5% lost income = £4,000 pa. Depreciation plus inflation plus VAT to £50,000 over 5 years = £6,000 pa. Total annual cost to you, £10,000pa
For 4 weeks charter a year that's £2,500 a week. Put your own numbers in. It's easy to decide then . . .
There will, of course, be a small additional performance risk - the risk that your contract will be invalidated if the company goes into receivership.
Now you know why so many companies do this - it saves them their two major expenses of running a boat.
1. Interest on the cash they would have had to borrow (you'll be losing the potential income from that cash instead)
2. Depreciation (the resale value of the boat in 4-5 years time, even when it's very nicely re-furbished, is going to be some 35% to 50% lower, including inflation. And don't forget to allow additionally for the lower value of a non-VAT paid boat - a further 10% or so of the original cost.)
Given these sums, you can work out the equivalent cost to you of the amount of sailing you'll be getting from the operating company. £80,000 boat, 5% lost income = £4,000 pa. Depreciation plus inflation plus VAT to £50,000 over 5 years = £6,000 pa. Total annual cost to you, £10,000pa
For 4 weeks charter a year that's £2,500 a week. Put your own numbers in. It's easy to decide then . . .
There will, of course, be a small additional performance risk - the risk that your contract will be invalidated if the company goes into receivership.
Now you know why so many companies do this - it saves them their two major expenses of running a boat.
thailand69
Well-Known Member
I haven't looked into this in any great detail, but the big attraction (actually "passing interest" would be more accurate!) for me would be having use of "a" boat not restricted to just one location........or continent - when you start factoring in the costs and time of arranging this / doing this all on yer own, I think the numbers would start making a lot more sense.
But then again, why not "Just" Charter!
But then again, why not "Just" Charter!
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Those figures are pretty close to what I calculated a few years back.
IIRC you had to be taking about 6 weeks free charter with Sunsail for it to look attractive. One one trip I did meet a couple who did just that and for them the whole thing seemed to work very well, but it is not really feasible for those of us who only get 5 weeks a year holiday
In my experience most of the people who say that they get their sailing for free tend to ignore the implicit financing costs.
IIRC you had to be taking about 6 weeks free charter with Sunsail for it to look attractive. One one trip I did meet a couple who did just that and for them the whole thing seemed to work very well, but it is not really feasible for those of us who only get 5 weeks a year holiday
In my experience most of the people who say that they get their sailing for free tend to ignore the implicit financing costs.
Oliveoyl
Well-Known Member
"Sailing for free" is not quite the right description either - even as an owner, there is an admin fee for each embarkation (£100), insurance waiver at £61 / week, end cleaning. OK if you can share it among paying crew, but steep for a couple.
As for financing, interest rates are so abysmal that I was not encouraged to go that route with my nest egg. Also too risk-averse to go for other investments. Also, interested in getting as much capital out of the country so that when I pop my clogs the Belgian state gets as little as possible!
As for financing, interest rates are so abysmal that I was not encouraged to go that route with my nest egg. Also too risk-averse to go for other investments. Also, interested in getting as much capital out of the country so that when I pop my clogs the Belgian state gets as little as possible!
capt_courageous
Well-Known Member
So what you are saying is that I buy a boat. Then someone lets me use it for four weeks a year and he uses it for the rest of the year to run a business. Wow! Sounds like the sort of deal they offer you on the beach in Tenerife.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Great deal for them innit!
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
The one person I know who did this in UK couldnt buy himself (themselves) out of the deal fast enough.
My view is that you either buy a boat for charter to make money, or you buy a boat to love, cherish and use. You cant do both.
My view is that you either buy a boat for charter to make money, or you buy a boat to love, cherish and use. You cant do both.
chrisgee
Well-Known Member
you need to be very wary of the so called residuals that Sunsail tend to bandy around. To get a realistic idea of prices 5 years on just look at their Sales website.
Out of 5 or6 Jeanneau 42.2 I looked in Vounaki last year none were in really good order , all had very basic electronics etc but ALL were for sale at low low prices.
Better to perhaps buy an ex charter boat from a small operator and sell a few shares in it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Out of 5 or6 Jeanneau 42.2 I looked in Vounaki last year none were in really good order , all had very basic electronics etc but ALL were for sale at low low prices.
Better to perhaps buy an ex charter boat from a small operator and sell a few shares in it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
tcm
...
well, otoh i have met owners who seem v happy.
Not for me - the Moorings option frexample means if you use it two weeks incarib over xmas - that's it for the year!
Mind you, you do save the vat and mooring and maint fees and there's a finance option as well. Oh alright then, it's a bit rubbish.
Not for me - the Moorings option frexample means if you use it two weeks incarib over xmas - that's it for the year!
Mind you, you do save the vat and mooring and maint fees and there's a finance option as well. Oh alright then, it's a bit rubbish.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
The people who seem best satisfied with the deal are people who sell the boat at the end of the contract and buy another in contract - that then works out more like contract chartering than owning.
So if you fancy doing 5-6 weeks Scumsail charter a year then it is worthwhile - otherwise there are cheaper ways of achieving the same result
So if you fancy doing 5-6 weeks Scumsail charter a year then it is worthwhile - otherwise there are cheaper ways of achieving the same result
MoodySabre
Well-Known Member
As I understand it, you don't buy the boat but you pay a deposit and the financing is met mostly from a share of the chartering. I haven't asked my friend for the figures but he is a businessman and was very happy with the outcome and all the sailing he had had in the meantime.
Of course Sunsail do it for their own benefit too but that doesn't necessarily make it a mugs game. Obviously you can't get a boat for free but, as I said before, he got 25% of one for free. If its what you want then fine.
Of course Sunsail do it for their own benefit too but that doesn't necessarily make it a mugs game. Obviously you can't get a boat for free but, as I said before, he got 25% of one for free. If its what you want then fine.
G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
As I understand it, you don't buy the boat
[/ QUOTE ]
It's worth checking what the position is if the charter company goes bust - especially if you don't have legal ownership the boat then, on the face of it, it would be problematic.
Generally I am suspicious of such deals - if they made sense from a purely financial point of view then banks would be falling over each other to lend the money on the same terms... Not that I've looked closely at it (personally I wouldn't be interested in buying the normal charter-type boat even if it was very cheap).
As I understand it, you don't buy the boat
[/ QUOTE ]
It's worth checking what the position is if the charter company goes bust - especially if you don't have legal ownership the boat then, on the face of it, it would be problematic.
Generally I am suspicious of such deals - if they made sense from a purely financial point of view then banks would be falling over each other to lend the money on the same terms... Not that I've looked closely at it (personally I wouldn't be interested in buying the normal charter-type boat even if it was very cheap).
