Yacht Justice Sinks

[doug748]

just before hitting the submit button, a really horrible feeling came over me wondering what comments regarding my post I would have to endure.

Do not take it to heart.

On the internet, as in life, we have to endure windbags, pedants and assorted pigs bladders on a stick. The majority can pick out the dross and will appreciate your efforts.

As they say in Lancashire: "A faint heart never made love to a pig"

 

[fisherman]

I'm always unsure about 'contributory negligence'. I spoke to my insurance broker, at the time Tony Burris at Bristol Channel marine. I asked "what if I'm going through the Manacles, not around the east cardinal mark, and have a mechanical failure and go ashore". This is a normal short cut between the Lizard and Falmouth. "Perils of the sea", was the answer, no problem with insurance.
To be honest, I'm often in worse situations than that in the course of normal work.

 

[beneteau_305_553]

Neglegence

I think the only problem with insurance is where there is gross negligence.

Steering directly to a waypoint which is a navigation buoy or a sand bank and hitting it is grossly neglegent but steering a passage through a chanel that happens to be too shallow is not. Its just an accident. However these claims do raise the premiums.

 

[sailorman]

However these claims do raise the premiums.

all claims have the potential to do this as does a flat stock market

 

[moondancer]

Going round the outside of Margate Hook would not have added anything like that time, With the sort of speed a boat like that would have made on a braod reach the extra time would barely have been noticable.

Havn't done the maths, but we would have got a lot further in one tide than Queenborough.

.

Yes you're right. What I meant to say was that it might have been better to get to the shallowest bits of the passage about 3 hours later on half flood.

If I can't get all the way up the river I tend to stop either in the Ray or Queenborough as there aren't many stopping points beyond those two.

 

[David_Jersey]

I can assure anyone who wants to know that marine insurance companies read this forum and use the information gleaned, it's not supposition but a fact I happen to know.

Well, lets hope they read the threads on Piracy - whilst writing out the new cheques............

 

[trapezeartist]

I've followed this whole thread with interest. As I don't know the area at all, I looked it up on a chart (Imray C1 1:120000, if you're interested). Based on what I saw there, I wouldn't even contemplate that route. At first sight, the pair of buoys are 0.17 Nm apart, but on putting in the correction to the buos' positions the gap between them is reduced to 0.07 Nm. There is no spot depth shown at the shallowest point, but the 2m contours are quite a distance apart so it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that the charted depth is substantially less than 2m.

According to my tidal prediction programme, LW was 05.14 on the night in question, with a minimum height of 0.9m. Therefore the water depth in the "channel" (perhaps not an appropriate term) was likely to be about 2m, maybe less and certainly not as much as 2.9m. Factor in non-astronomical effects, waves and the possibility that the depths vary due to sand erosion; it doesn't seem like a good place to go in a deep keel boat. (I don't know the draught of a J133: a bit over 2m?)

The alternative route north of Margate Sand and through the Princes Channel appears infinitely safer and only half a mile longer.

 

[Bajansailor]

A very sad story - and one that could potentially happen to any of us, as nobody is 'perfect', and everybody is capable of making mistakes or errors in navigation, or even just bad (in retrospect afterwards) judgements re 'what to do', especially so in the conditions described.

The photos remind me of the J 44 'First Light' that came ashore here 4 years ago - she had been properly constructed, and had been around the world with her owners without incident, yet she broke up rapidly as soon as she bounced over a reef and came up on the beach on the east coast.
I posted some photos of her a year later in this thread http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111396&

 

[Sandyman]

I would ask all contributors to this thread to remember the saying: ' there but for the grace of God............................''

We have all been there.

 

[Chris_Robb]

A very sad story - and one that could potentially happen to any of us, as nobody is 'perfect', and everybody is capable of making mistakes or errors in navigation, or even just bad (in retrospect afterwards) judgements re 'what to do', especially so in the conditions described.

ERRRRR - I don't think so! Looking at the chart as the other poster did, I would not have made that decision, in the dark, and that weather with a deep keeled boat.

So saying - I will make some stupid error next year and be made to remember these words

 

[sailorman]

A very sad story - and one that could potentially happen to any of us, as nobody is 'perfect', and everybody is capable of making mistakes or errors in navigation, or even just bad (in retrospect afterwards) judgements re 'what to do', especially so in the conditions described.

The photos remind me of the J 44 'First Light' that came ashore here 4 years ago - she had been properly constructed, and had been around the world with her owners without incident, yet she broke up rapidly as soon as she bounced over a reef and came up on the beach on the east coast.
I posted some photos of her a year later in this thread http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111396&

she broke her back @ a hard spot ( bulkhead) now had she been constructed using traditional Stringers that would not have happened imho

 

[sailorman]

From Nonitoo on the Mobo Forum

And learning lessons from others will prevent more of us "being there". Surely there's nothing wrong with analysing others actions? It clearly looks like a wrong decision to have taken the route they did and contributors can say that without the implication that they themselves are perfect. As we're in the mood for trite sayings, try this by Steve Turner "History repeats itself. Has to, no one listens".

This highlights a potential problem in the 'overland' passage into the Thames along the north kent coast.

Even if you stay between the buoys (East Last/ Hook Spit) at low water there in only about 1.4 meters.

On many occasions I have transitted there at low water en route to St. Kats and have had to crawl across that bit with only 0.5 showing on the depth sounder (I draw 1.0 mtrs).

There is less water there than charted. As it is so little used commercially I suspect there is little incentive to survey the area. Thirty years ago I used to take 5000 tonners through that route at high water drawing 5.0 mtrs but not any more.

As a matter of interest the direct route from the Hook Spit to the Spile is also shoaling from the south and my advice would be to dog-leg via the Spaniard.

My apologies if this is of little interest to those outside the south east.

Tom

 

[Otter]

I would ask all contributors to this thread to remember the saying: ' there but for the grace of God............................''

We have all been there.

And learning lessons from others will prevent more of us "being there". Surely there's nothing wrong with analysing others actions? It clearly looks like a wrong decision to have taken the route they did and contributors can say that without the implication that they themselves are perfect. As we're in the mood for trite sayings, try this by Steve Turner "History repeats itself. Has to, no one listens".

 

[bbg]

And learning lessons from others will prevent more of us "being there". Surely there's nothing wrong with analysing others actions? It clearly looks like a wrong decision to have taken the route they did and contributors can say that without the implication that they themselves are perfect. As we're in the mood for trite sayings, try this by Steve Turner "History repeats itself. Has to, no one listens".

I agree - I think it is appropriate to review this with a "lessons learned" approach.
I don't know this area and I am unlikely ever to sail there, but I can take some lessons from this event without criticising the skipper for his choices. It would be inappropriate for me to do so because - among other reasons - I don't know the area, I don't know the skipper.

 

[Cantata]

......There is less water there than charted. As it is so little used commercially I suspect there is little incentive to survey the area. .....

Actually Trinity House has surveyed it at least twice in the last 18 months. During summer 2008 it was surveyed at my suggestion, and they reported it 'as charted' (and remember this means current charts, they are frequently re-issued round here), while in summer 2009 they moved the buoys closer together.
I think some people use this route by treating the gap between the buoys as a chicane, and approach and depart the chicane from different angles. It's necessary to use the passage on a SE/NW-ish heading; for instance, coming from the E, apprach on about 285, then when between the buoys turn NW and stick to that for at least 100m before resuming a westerly course. In particular the Last sand is spreading N, immediately NW of the East Last buoy.
I haven't pushed my luck with tide timing in the way that the skipper of 'Justice' may have done, but by following my own advice I have never had cause for alarm.
Having said all that, TH have also said they are keeping an eye on the area and have posted a question mark over the long-term viability of the buoyed route.

 

[savageseadog]

He chose to take his boat through a shallow channel, in a near gale, with an inexperienced crew, in winter. Go on, put a good gloss on that lot.

Here we go again. You've taken your lead from the "report". Do you know if the crew was inexperienced or not? Is it even relevant? What difference would the crew have made to whether the yacht grounded or not or to any prospect of recovery?

When I was involved in cave rescue it was convention for no unofficial comments or statements to be made by team members to third parties, including the press. If the RNLI has something to say it should have been made through senior officials.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Can't believe this thread is nearing centurion status.

Man takes deep boat through shallow water.

Crash. Bang. Wallop.

End of story.

 

[Searush]

Yes, Ken, but some can see the lessons to be learnt, while others are too clever to be told.

Somehow that doesn't seem to read right.

 

[Blueboatman]

Interestingly the rudder survived intact despite taking horrible grounding forces after the keel went, one presumes..

I am less impressed with the bonding of the cores once the hull was broached. Afaik they are now built by Beneteau and no longer by PearsonTillotson in the US. When raced hard, ie to win, well ,never mind..

In Bajansailors account, it was the loss of the rudderstock that brought that particular boat ashore.

Agree with Sailorman re Stringers.

Note to self. Bore a 30mm hole in the aft part of the rudder to facilitate quick attachment of emergency steering ropes using a boathook.

Hate to see ANY beautiful boat go to pieces. I am sure the skipper is pretty devastated.

Having been ashore a couple of times myself ( and mercifully got off with one partly stove in plank and latterly nobbut much damaged pride), I think ''There but for the Grace of fortune'' indeed sums it up, well said. Sand is pretty hard stuff, right up there with the wooden pies they use for breakwaters..

Re TwisterKen.. 100. Are we there yet ? Every little helps.

 

[sailorman]

100

Interestingly the rudder survived intact despite taking horrible grounding forces after the keel went, one presumes..

I am less impressed with the bonding of the cores once the hull was broached. Afaik they are now built by Beneteau and no longer by PearsonTillotson in the US. When raced hard, ie to win, well ,never mind..

In Bajansailors account, it was the loss of the rudderstock that brought that particular boat ashore.

Agree with Sailorman re Stringers.

Note to self. Bore a 30mm hole in the aft part of the rudder to facilitate quick attachment of emergency steering ropes using a boathook.

Hate to see ANY beautiful boat go to pieces. I am sure the skipper is pretty devastated.

Having been ashore a couple of times myself ( and mercifully got off with one partly stove in plank and latterly nobbut much damaged pride), I think ''There but for the Grace of fortune'' indeed sums it up, well said. Sand is pretty hard stuff, right up there with the wooden pies they use for breakwaters..

Re TwisterKen.. 100. Are we there yet ? Every little helps.

they are all lightly built to cost & ease of manufacture thats why the tramsoms are now part of the deck moulding & not part of the hull structure & no stringers or structural bulkheads in sight