nobles48
New member
Does anyone know the best (easiest?) way to register a boat built outside the EU in the EU? Which country would be the cheapest from the point of view of VAT? Which is the simplest from the point of view of RCD compliance?
Yacht import
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kingfisher
Well-known member
Not \"visited\", but \"sold\"
Boats are excempt from the RCD, if you can prove that they were *placed on the EEA (European Economic Area) market* prior to 16/06/1998.
Any paper that says that your boat is excempt, because it *visited* the EEA prior to that period is worthless.
"Placed on the market"
Placing on the market is the initial action of making a product available for the first time on the Community market, with a view to distribution or use in the Community.
(Blue Guide, '99 edition)
When you say a house has been put on the market, people understand what you mean. but use the same words under the RCD, and people start to give the words completely different meanings.
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
Boats are excempt from the RCD, if you can prove that they were *placed on the EEA (European Economic Area) market* prior to 16/06/1998.
Any paper that says that your boat is excempt, because it *visited* the EEA prior to that period is worthless.
"Placed on the market"
Placing on the market is the initial action of making a product available for the first time on the Community market, with a view to distribution or use in the Community.
(Blue Guide, '99 edition)
When you say a house has been put on the market, people understand what you mean. but use the same words under the RCD, and people start to give the words completely different meanings.
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
AndrewB
Well-known member
Re: Not \"visited\", but \"sold\"
I think Fatipa is probably right. As your Blue Guide quote says 'placing on the market' for a yacht can include USE in the Community. The Recreational Craft Directive UK Statutory Instrument 1996/1353 states " 'placing on the market' includes .... putting into service". I've been told (on the phone) by a Trading Standards Officer that this should exempt yachts that had been kept in the EC prior to the qualifying date. The same advice is given by the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rya.org.uk/images/uploaded/Final_CE_Mark_Leaflet.344686fe-846a-4298-8a96-c7cdd44e012f.pdf>RYA CE Mark Leaflet</A>.
Whether it would include a yacht that had just made a brief visit is a moot point. Large numbers of Turkish yachts made a point of sailing over to Greece just before the deadline in the belief this would provide them with exemption.
For authoritative advice on the RCD, it would be advisable to contact either the RYA or UK Customs which have a helpline service that can advise on yacht importation queries on 0845 010 9000. The Trading Standards Office is decentralised and not well-informed on this point (well, when I tried). Even if Noble48 pays VAT in the Azores, he should deal with the RCD in the country where the yacht is registered - presumably the UK if he is resident here. Incidentally, in 1997 the Azores customs refused to allow me to pay VAT at the local concessionary rate because I was UK resident, but their rules may since have changed.
I think Fatipa is probably right. As your Blue Guide quote says 'placing on the market' for a yacht can include USE in the Community. The Recreational Craft Directive UK Statutory Instrument 1996/1353 states " 'placing on the market' includes .... putting into service". I've been told (on the phone) by a Trading Standards Officer that this should exempt yachts that had been kept in the EC prior to the qualifying date. The same advice is given by the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rya.org.uk/images/uploaded/Final_CE_Mark_Leaflet.344686fe-846a-4298-8a96-c7cdd44e012f.pdf>RYA CE Mark Leaflet</A>.
Whether it would include a yacht that had just made a brief visit is a moot point. Large numbers of Turkish yachts made a point of sailing over to Greece just before the deadline in the belief this would provide them with exemption.
For authoritative advice on the RCD, it would be advisable to contact either the RYA or UK Customs which have a helpline service that can advise on yacht importation queries on 0845 010 9000. The Trading Standards Office is decentralised and not well-informed on this point (well, when I tried). Even if Noble48 pays VAT in the Azores, he should deal with the RCD in the country where the yacht is registered - presumably the UK if he is resident here. Incidentally, in 1997 the Azores customs refused to allow me to pay VAT at the local concessionary rate because I was UK resident, but their rules may since have changed.
kingfisher
Well-known member
Re: Not \"visited\", but \"imported\"\"
A boat owner who has bought a new boat or a used boat in a third country and returns the boat by whatever means to the EEA territory and places that boat into service, for the first time in the EEA, will be subject to the requirements of the Directive.
In addition, used boats from third countries that are put into service for the first time in the EEA territory also fall under the scope of the Directive, except where these boats were originally constructed in the EEA. This means that the owner of a boat from a third country shall ensure that his boat complies with the Directive when the boat is first put into service. Reference is made to the “1950” exclusion, below and in Article 1(e).
An owner who buys a boat in a third country (whether new or second hand) and sails to EEA territory, or returns an existing boat to EEA territory, is considered to be an importer. At the time of putting into service the provisions of the Directive become applicable under the heading “second hand boat imported from a third country”. The only exemption being that the boat was designed before 1950. It should be mentioned that any Member State usage or navigation requirements would, additionally, be applicable.
IOW you have to be able to prove more than just a short-term visit to the EEA. Has the boat ever been imported in an EEA country (customs docs) ? VAT paid, if applicable ? Bill of sale with an EEA location ? Has the boat ever been certified under a previous (national) legislation? registered in an EAA country ?
From the RYA -site:
Since 16 June 1998 all recreational craft with few exceptions, between 2.5 metres and 24 metres in length, imported into the EEA for the first time, and home-built boats if placed on the market within five years of completion, must comply with the essential requirements of the RCD and must be CE marked to certify this compliance.
Put into service means the first use by the end user but does not include boats temporarily put into service for reasons of tourism or transit.
I wish it were otherwise, because my escape-the-world-plan is buying an Island Packet 380 on the West-Coast and sail it back home through the pacific.
But then again, I can do the CE-marking myself, so cost would be minimal.
If you want to know what is required, read the RSG Guidelines, under "I. POST CONSTRUCTION ASSESSMENT"
http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/maritime_regulatory/rc_switchboard.htm
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
A boat owner who has bought a new boat or a used boat in a third country and returns the boat by whatever means to the EEA territory and places that boat into service, for the first time in the EEA, will be subject to the requirements of the Directive.
In addition, used boats from third countries that are put into service for the first time in the EEA territory also fall under the scope of the Directive, except where these boats were originally constructed in the EEA. This means that the owner of a boat from a third country shall ensure that his boat complies with the Directive when the boat is first put into service. Reference is made to the “1950” exclusion, below and in Article 1(e).
An owner who buys a boat in a third country (whether new or second hand) and sails to EEA territory, or returns an existing boat to EEA territory, is considered to be an importer. At the time of putting into service the provisions of the Directive become applicable under the heading “second hand boat imported from a third country”. The only exemption being that the boat was designed before 1950. It should be mentioned that any Member State usage or navigation requirements would, additionally, be applicable.
IOW you have to be able to prove more than just a short-term visit to the EEA. Has the boat ever been imported in an EEA country (customs docs) ? VAT paid, if applicable ? Bill of sale with an EEA location ? Has the boat ever been certified under a previous (national) legislation? registered in an EAA country ?
From the RYA -site:
Since 16 June 1998 all recreational craft with few exceptions, between 2.5 metres and 24 metres in length, imported into the EEA for the first time, and home-built boats if placed on the market within five years of completion, must comply with the essential requirements of the RCD and must be CE marked to certify this compliance.
Put into service means the first use by the end user but does not include boats temporarily put into service for reasons of tourism or transit.
I wish it were otherwise, because my escape-the-world-plan is buying an Island Packet 380 on the West-Coast and sail it back home through the pacific.
But then again, I can do the CE-marking myself, so cost would be minimal.
If you want to know what is required, read the RSG Guidelines, under "I. POST CONSTRUCTION ASSESSMENT"
http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/maritime_regulatory/rc_switchboard.htm
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
kingfisher
Well-known member
Size matters for RCD
Is the boat smaller than 12m?
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
Is the boat smaller than 12m?
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
AndrewB
Well-known member
Re: Not \"visited\", but \"imported\"\"
"Directive Exemption: A third country vessel that has been put on the market or was in service within the waters of the EEA prior to June 16th 1998 is exempt from the requirements of the RCD. It can be legally traded/put into service if the above criteria can be proved. ... There are a number of documents that might be used as proof of having been on the market or in service in a qualifying area" (http://www.pyrogen.co.uk/downloads/Recreational Craft Directive.pdf).
I've seen nothing in the statutory instruments or the guidance to suggest that this right is lost as a result of change of ownership either within or outside the EEA.
If you abandon UK residency you could always buy your Ocean Packet 380 (GREAT choice BTW) and bring it back under temporary importation relief for 18 months - extended indefinitely with a bit of ingenuity. No VAT or RCD, but of course you couldn't sell it.
Don't you have to be a "Notified Body" to be allowed to CE-mark?
"Directive Exemption: A third country vessel that has been put on the market or was in service within the waters of the EEA prior to June 16th 1998 is exempt from the requirements of the RCD. It can be legally traded/put into service if the above criteria can be proved. ... There are a number of documents that might be used as proof of having been on the market or in service in a qualifying area" (http://www.pyrogen.co.uk/downloads/Recreational Craft Directive.pdf).
I've seen nothing in the statutory instruments or the guidance to suggest that this right is lost as a result of change of ownership either within or outside the EEA.
If you abandon UK residency you could always buy your Ocean Packet 380 (GREAT choice BTW) and bring it back under temporary importation relief for 18 months - extended indefinitely with a bit of ingenuity. No VAT or RCD, but of course you couldn't sell it.
Don't you have to be a "Notified Body" to be allowed to CE-mark?
kingfisher
Well-known member
DIY RCD
1) Even if it has been in the EU in 1977, and then spent twenty years in Timbuktu, it is excluded from the RCD. 'Put into use' is a very grey area, between ' a cursory visit'<>'flagged in the EU' is a whole range of interpretations. In analogy, IMHO it is best to use the VAT regulation: once a vessel has been more than 6 months in the EU, VAT is due, I believe. So you'd have to prove a stay for longer than 6months to be on the safe side, i'd guess.
2) I think IP's are the panultimate blue water cruisers. Just look at that anchoring system. It's just that they come at a price. And the yellowish GRP is not to everyones taste.
3) Here's the scenario:
The classification is determined by the manufacturer ('intended by the manufacturer to be used...'. So the first "cheat" you could try to get away with, is stating that it is a class D (sheltered/inland waters) boat. For the moment, no authority uses the RCD classification to allow/ban certain boat classes from certain waters. The french are thinking about it, but it's not as if the ARC will suddenly allow only class-A boats to participate. The only problem is reselling it afterwards: who would want to buy a class-D yacht?.
Under class D, no involvement of an NB(notified body) is required. This is currently under review (to many trying this approach
---
But you want to do it seriously:
An IP 350-380 is a class A boat, less than 12m. (BTW have you seen the 485? Heard it was at LBS). So conformity assessment is module Aa: self assessment by the manufacturer, with notified body involved in the stability assessment.
BTW: stability does not have to be tested, it can be proven through theoretical means as well (calculations).
Write to a few NBs, asking for an estimate. Keep in mind that under the New Approach, NB's are semi-private, and that you can select any NB in Europe. I'd go for a Dutch one: choice of three, more competition.
All the other aspects, the owner can do himself: draft declaration of conformity, technical construction file and labelling.
*Current IP models are CE-marked, so contact the mftr before starting
*most harmonised standards are derived from ISO standards. If the boat is not CE-marked, ask for a list of standards used.
*Even if different standards are used (eg.ANSI), they are still usable under the RCD. Harmonised standards simply give an assumption of conformity. If you use other standards, you have to prove with the technical construction file that they meet the Essential Requirements of the RCD.
Think 1.000-2.000£ and a few days work and telephones.
But something 12m+ will definitely burn a hole through your wallet. As soon as you get into module B or higher, the involvement of the NB is big that the price no longer warants the price difference between EU and USA
Once a craft is CE-marked, it has the "assumption of conformity". In case of discussion, it is up to the market surveillance authorities to prove that the product is not compliant. Bon chance to any french official to prove that an IP does not comply to the Essential Requirements. So the only thing they can make life difficult for you is in the administration dept. I can do a declaration fo conformity blindfol, there is a template of a builders plate in every guideline, only a technical construction file is the difficult bit.
Frankly I'm more put off by the fact that all electrical systems in a USA IP are 110V, than the fact that I'm in charge of the CE-marking.
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
1) Even if it has been in the EU in 1977, and then spent twenty years in Timbuktu, it is excluded from the RCD. 'Put into use' is a very grey area, between ' a cursory visit'<>'flagged in the EU' is a whole range of interpretations. In analogy, IMHO it is best to use the VAT regulation: once a vessel has been more than 6 months in the EU, VAT is due, I believe. So you'd have to prove a stay for longer than 6months to be on the safe side, i'd guess.
2) I think IP's are the panultimate blue water cruisers. Just look at that anchoring system. It's just that they come at a price. And the yellowish GRP is not to everyones taste.
3) Here's the scenario:
The classification is determined by the manufacturer ('intended by the manufacturer to be used...'. So the first "cheat" you could try to get away with, is stating that it is a class D (sheltered/inland waters) boat. For the moment, no authority uses the RCD classification to allow/ban certain boat classes from certain waters. The french are thinking about it, but it's not as if the ARC will suddenly allow only class-A boats to participate. The only problem is reselling it afterwards: who would want to buy a class-D yacht?.
Under class D, no involvement of an NB(notified body) is required. This is currently under review (to many trying this approach
---
But you want to do it seriously:
An IP 350-380 is a class A boat, less than 12m. (BTW have you seen the 485? Heard it was at LBS). So conformity assessment is module Aa: self assessment by the manufacturer, with notified body involved in the stability assessment.
BTW: stability does not have to be tested, it can be proven through theoretical means as well (calculations).
Write to a few NBs, asking for an estimate. Keep in mind that under the New Approach, NB's are semi-private, and that you can select any NB in Europe. I'd go for a Dutch one: choice of three, more competition.
All the other aspects, the owner can do himself: draft declaration of conformity, technical construction file and labelling.
*Current IP models are CE-marked, so contact the mftr before starting
*most harmonised standards are derived from ISO standards. If the boat is not CE-marked, ask for a list of standards used.
*Even if different standards are used (eg.ANSI), they are still usable under the RCD. Harmonised standards simply give an assumption of conformity. If you use other standards, you have to prove with the technical construction file that they meet the Essential Requirements of the RCD.
Think 1.000-2.000£ and a few days work and telephones.
But something 12m+ will definitely burn a hole through your wallet. As soon as you get into module B or higher, the involvement of the NB is big that the price no longer warants the price difference between EU and USA
Once a craft is CE-marked, it has the "assumption of conformity". In case of discussion, it is up to the market surveillance authorities to prove that the product is not compliant. Bon chance to any french official to prove that an IP does not comply to the Essential Requirements. So the only thing they can make life difficult for you is in the administration dept. I can do a declaration fo conformity blindfol, there is a template of a builders plate in every guideline, only a technical construction file is the difficult bit.
Frankly I'm more put off by the fact that all electrical systems in a USA IP are 110V, than the fact that I'm in charge of the CE-marking.
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
AndrewB
Well-known member
Re: DIY RCD
Yes, that's right, - even if it has been in the EU in 1977, and then spent twenty years in Timbuktu, it is exempt from the RCD. 'Placed in service' is indeed a grey area, and may turn out to need case-law clarification of its definition. As I said in an earlier posting, the informal advice of a Trading Standards Officer was that evidence that the yacht had been kept in EEA waters would be sufficient. But one would be more reassured by evidence of a long stay.
I've wondered about the 'exemption certificates' being issued by CE-Proof that have no legal status. £125 for a flash multilingual piece of paper - is this purely a scam?
A yacht is exempt from VAT in the EU under temporary importation relief for 18 months (though local rules effectively restrict that to 6 months in member states). A yacht brought into the EEA by an EC resident is immediately liable for VAT (though there is a sailaway arrangement that would effectively allow 2 months grace in the UK).
I like your EC-mark wheeze. But I'm not sure I'd risk it personally - well OK, after you then. Its not just the stability tests, so many bits and pieces have to conform. As I recently discovered, very few production portlights designed before RCD will comply. And though checking is now slack, it was with VAT exemption for a few years after its introduction.
Yes, that's right, - even if it has been in the EU in 1977, and then spent twenty years in Timbuktu, it is exempt from the RCD. 'Placed in service' is indeed a grey area, and may turn out to need case-law clarification of its definition. As I said in an earlier posting, the informal advice of a Trading Standards Officer was that evidence that the yacht had been kept in EEA waters would be sufficient. But one would be more reassured by evidence of a long stay.
I've wondered about the 'exemption certificates' being issued by CE-Proof that have no legal status. £125 for a flash multilingual piece of paper - is this purely a scam?
A yacht is exempt from VAT in the EU under temporary importation relief for 18 months (though local rules effectively restrict that to 6 months in member states). A yacht brought into the EEA by an EC resident is immediately liable for VAT (though there is a sailaway arrangement that would effectively allow 2 months grace in the UK).
I like your EC-mark wheeze. But I'm not sure I'd risk it personally - well OK, after you then. Its not just the stability tests, so many bits and pieces have to conform. As I recently discovered, very few production portlights designed before RCD will comply. And though checking is now slack, it was with VAT exemption for a few years after its introduction.
G
Guest
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Post deleted by danfoley
halcyon
Well-known member
Re: DIY RCD
Do they cover self build as well ?
Have a mate envolved in a self build project, and RCD complience came up last week
Brian
Do they cover self build as well ?
Have a mate envolved in a self build project, and RCD complience came up last week
Brian
AndrewB
Well-known member
Here comes trouble ...
If you have been told this is a legal statement of exemption, then you'd better start stocking up on the dynamite. Take a look at what CEProof say in the small print on http://www.ceproof.com/PDF_downloads/DECApplication.pdf.
I don't believe they are a 'Notified Body' and so do not have authority to CE-mark, though of course that does not stop them offering advice, and measuring for an organisation that does.
The Bahamas is NOT part of the EC or EEA and cannot be used to claim exemption. The only parts of the West Indies that are in the EEA are Martinique and Guadaloupe (and its sub-prefectures, e.g. the French part of St Martin's).
British registration is irrelevant to the RCD, except that other EU countries will accept that it is the UK's responsibility to establish your compliance, and so will not bother you.
It would be interesting to get CEProof's reaction to the views on this thread.
If you have been told this is a legal statement of exemption, then you'd better start stocking up on the dynamite. Take a look at what CEProof say in the small print on http://www.ceproof.com/PDF_downloads/DECApplication.pdf.
I don't believe they are a 'Notified Body' and so do not have authority to CE-mark, though of course that does not stop them offering advice, and measuring for an organisation that does.
The Bahamas is NOT part of the EC or EEA and cannot be used to claim exemption. The only parts of the West Indies that are in the EEA are Martinique and Guadaloupe (and its sub-prefectures, e.g. the French part of St Martin's).
British registration is irrelevant to the RCD, except that other EU countries will accept that it is the UK's responsibility to establish your compliance, and so will not bother you.
It would be interesting to get CEProof's reaction to the views on this thread.
G
Guest
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Post deleted by danfoley
kingfisher
Well-known member
Re: Here comes trouble ...
CEproof's "excemption certificate" has no more value than the reputation of the issuer. There is no such thing as a "document of excemption", CEproof isn't even a notified body under the RCD. Their business methods sometimes leave me in doubt: they profit from the lack of knowledge in the market. As long as they sell their services to professionals, I don't mind (like their 'practices' at last years SBS). But when they start to claim their documents are 'official' to consumers, I get a bit upset.
Is your boat in the EU right now? Is it registered? You are allowed to *own* a non-compliant boat. Because CE-marking serves mainly as a passport, you'll be fine. But, legaly, you're not allowed to *sell* the boat (bring it on the market), unless it is compliant. Or excempt.
So, aside from the discussion on the value of the CEproofs documents, was your boat for a prolonged period in the EU prior to the cut-off date?
EEA= EU (plus dependancies)+Norway+Iceland+Lichtenstein. But see the CEproof site on that one, seems they got it right, there.
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
CEproof's "excemption certificate" has no more value than the reputation of the issuer. There is no such thing as a "document of excemption", CEproof isn't even a notified body under the RCD. Their business methods sometimes leave me in doubt: they profit from the lack of knowledge in the market. As long as they sell their services to professionals, I don't mind (like their 'practices' at last years SBS). But when they start to claim their documents are 'official' to consumers, I get a bit upset.
Is your boat in the EU right now? Is it registered? You are allowed to *own* a non-compliant boat. Because CE-marking serves mainly as a passport, you'll be fine. But, legaly, you're not allowed to *sell* the boat (bring it on the market), unless it is compliant. Or excempt.
So, aside from the discussion on the value of the CEproofs documents, was your boat for a prolonged period in the EU prior to the cut-off date?
EEA= EU (plus dependancies)+Norway+Iceland+Lichtenstein. But see the CEproof site on that one, seems they got it right, there.
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com