Yacht Gas Regulations

[catalac]

Hi there.
Does anyone know where I can obtain details of the gas regulations for yachts applicable in 1984 please?

My Catalac catamaran, built in 1984, is fitted with a built in gas cooker, a gas hob and a built in folding gas grill, all in good working order, but there are no isolating valves fitted. The only possible place to install these is in the bilge below the equipment, as this is the only place where the bonded in copper supply pipes are accessible. I do not want to have them fitted there for safety reasons, (ie any leaks that might develop) nor is it an accessible place in an emergency.

I believe if the original installation was in accordance with the regulations that existed at the time it should not be necessary to modify it.

Can anyone help please?

 

[Tranona]

There were - and still are, no regulations covering gas installations in yachts, only a British Standard (that is not compulsory) and the Inland Waterways Boat Safety Scheme. You can get guidance on best practice for installations from Southern Calor in Southampton where you can also get a list of certified installers who can install or check and certify your installation as conforming to best practice.

 

[vyv_cox]

Were there any at that time? My Sadler, also built in 1984, has a valve at the end of the copper pipe section, immediately before the flexible into the cooker. The current Boat Safety Scheme says:

Appliance isolation valves must be installed in the supply line to each appliance, including portable types. This allows an appliance to be isolated from the main installation system if it leaks or malfunctions. To ensure that you can easily control the gas supply to each appliance the valves must be readily accessible. Boats manufactured before 3 January 2000 are exempt from this part of this Standard, unless the appliance is connected with a flexible hose.
If there is only one appliance the main shut-off valve is sufficient, unless the appliance is portable.

As Tranona says, none of this is directly applicable to sea-going yachts but many surveyors seem to interpret it as such and will require it.

 

[C08]

I think the important thing here is to achieve best safety and good practice and to fulfil expectations of a surveyor when next surveyed. The original location for the gas cylinders in the starboard locker on Catalacs makes it quite hard to achieve any gas leak fully draining out of the boat and many Catalacs have the gas cylinder(s) now The in the starboard rear deck locker, where it is easy to fit a solenoid valve and have a gas locker that fulfils modern safety standards. I have 2x6kg cylinders + a solenoid valve+ a Bubble Leak detector. I also have a Gas Detector by the step near the gas cooker in my 8M. With a proper through bulkhead fitting and an on/off valve you can then achieve full compliance with B waterways standards, which is a usefull code of practice to work to although as others have noted there are no regs enforacable for sea boats. This is rather easier to do with the outboard engined models as the ideal locker is not then full of fuel tank! Quite a rewarding job to do with parts costing not much more than £170 including new gas line plus a couple of days labour.

 

[nigelmercier]

Surely if you only have one appliance, the isolation valve can be on the bottle?

 

[vyv_cox]

Surely if you only have one appliance, the isolation valve can be on the bottle?

That's what the Boat Safety Scheme says, see above, unless it's a portable device.

 

[Paddingtonbear]

The comments here are true and there are in fact very few regulations for lumpy water boats which is why 4 boats caught alight(apart from crass stupidity) at my local marina (in separate incidents) this season, refilling hot outboards with petrol from cans. Raise any thought of regulation about any lumpy water boat and you get the "its our right to do what we want" anti "nanny state" brigade (I just call it common sense) on your back. The manager of said marina (part of an international chain) is thinking of instituting some kind of checks on the lines of the BSS, I know, I know no one will moor there.

 

[blackbeard]

So far as I am aware, there are no gas regulations as such for small seagoing pleasure vessels, but the Recreational Craft Directive requires the fitting of an isolating valve which can be operated from inside the accommodation (preferably, one assumes, not above the cooker). If you are not bothered about the RCD the valve (tap) on top of the regulator should suffice (especially, presumably, if there is only one gas-using device), provided of course that you can reach it easily.

I have another question which I hope might be accommodated on this thread. The September issue of PBO had an article on gas regulators which stated, very strongly, that regulators should be suitable for marine use ie not the normal camping/caravan type. I discussed this with a chandler who had never heard of this! After some looking up catalogues we decided that marine types might be available (though not in his stock), but would be MUCH more expensive than the few quid charged for "normal" regulators. I checked with a couple of chandlers with internet sales and they, too, seemed unaware of regulators specifically for marine use. Has anyone any views/information on this? I wouldn't be unwilling to change a camping-type regulator every five years or so for the few quid that they cost (ie change at same time as flexible piping, especially the armoured type, which should, I understand, be replaced at five years after manufacture (not five years after fitting)).

 

[Kwik Decision]

http://www.socal.co.uk/toolbox/regulators-adaptors/low-pressure/marine-regulators.html

Try here, £25 for the camping gaz one.

I should add I've had one for two yrs. it hasn't shown any sign of corroding yet, unlike the cheap one it replaced, and it has a 1/4 turn valve, which is easier to use than the screw in type, therefore you're more likely to turn the gas off.

 

[ffiill]

Surely if you only have one appliance, the isolation valve can be on the bottle?

Interesting as my yacht failed the Boat Safety cert. some years ago one reason being that I didnt have an isolator tap near the appliance despite this being my only appliance and having a solenpod cut off in the bottle locker controled by a gas sniffer alarm! and electric switch plus the bottle tap.
I do think it was a rather pedantic surveyor.

 

[BERT T]

This subject has been discussed before, the one thing you need to insure is that you are using the correct type of regulator.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Gaslow_Marine_Gas_Regulators.html
This site is worth a visit, especially anyone who has a boat built after 2001.

 

[lw395]

The comments here are true and there are in fact very few regulations for lumpy water boats which is why 4 boats caught alight(apart from crass stupidity) at my local marina (in separate incidents) this season, refilling hot outboards with petrol from cans. Raise any thought of regulation about any lumpy water boat and you get the "its our right to do what we want" anti "nanny state" brigade (I just call it common sense) on your back. The manager of said marina (part of an international chain) is thinking of instituting some kind of checks on the lines of the BSS, I know, I know no one will moor there.

I'm surprised so many people manage to set fire to boats by filling an outboard from a can.
My outboard has no hot exposed parts.
Even the hidden parts are not particularly hot on a water cooled outboard.
Compare with refuelling my motorbike, which has exposed exhausts at way over 100degC.

 

[sailorman]

I'm surprised so many people manage to set fire to boats by filling an outboard from a can.
My outboard has no hot exposed parts.
Even the hidden parts are not particularly hot on a water cooled outboard.
Compare with refuelling my motorbike, which has exposed exhausts at way over 100degC.

Its the fumes that sink in the cockpit / accommodation, then a nice tot cupper pls my dear says the skipper & she lights the stove

 

[lw395]

Hi there.
Does anyone know where I can obtain details of the gas regulations for yachts applicable in 1984 please?

My Catalac catamaran, built in 1984, is fitted with a built in gas cooker, a gas hob and a built in folding gas grill, all in good working order, but there are no isolating valves fitted. The only possible place to install these is in the bilge below the equipment, as this is the only place where the bonded in copper supply pipes are accessible. I do not want to have them fitted there for safety reasons, (ie any leaks that might develop) nor is it an accessible place in an emergency.

I believe if the original installation was in accordance with the regulations that existed at the time it should not be necessary to modify it.

Can anyone help please?

Personally I would be unhappy sailing on a yacht where doing the bare minimum to satisfy the letter of the law is the order of the day, but OTOH a careful person who understands what he is doing is worth a dozen safety devices.
I've sailed on a boat where the cylinder was under the stove, we new it was not ideal, so we were very careful.
Does your oven/stove have flame failure?
I think, practically, this is the most important safety thing on a yacht cooker system.
The second is an owner who knows whether or not the gas he is buying matches up roughly with what he is using.
You shouldn't need another camping gaz cylinder if you've only boiled a kettle a dozen times over the last month.
I've known that cause people to go looking for small leaks and find them.
Personally, I like to see a shut off valve in plain view near the cooker, not tucked away in a locker.

 

[lw395]

Its the fumes that sink in the cockpit / accommodation, then a nice tot cupper pls my dear says the skipper & she lights the stove

Not related to the temperature of the outboard then?

 

[macd]

Not related to the temperature of the outboard then?

I doubt sailorman would know. As you no doubt noticed, the original reference, by Paddingtonbear, was to "refilling hot outboards with petrol from cans". But, like you, I'd be surprised if a anything on a water-cooled outboard reaches flash point. Maybe an air-cooled Honda?

 

[Neil_Y]

I'm surprised so many people manage to set fire to boats by filling an outboard from a can.
My outboard has no hot exposed parts.
Even the hidden parts are not particularly hot on a water cooled outboard.
Compare with refuelling my motorbike, which has exposed exhausts at way over 100degC.

It happened to me on a hunter 707 where the outboard is stored on its side whilst sailing, it was the spark or ignition system that started the fire. Either the filler cap or fuel shut off were leaking and then first pull and it went up in flames. I'm guessing all it took was a loose plug cap / HT lead and you have a spark. Petrol even vaporised needs 280C to ignite (auto ignition temperature). Flash point is much lower but this requires a spark/flame to ignite the liquid. Diesel has a much lower auto ignition temperature than petrol but a higher flash point.

Flash point is the temperature of the liquid, when the vapour given off will ignite with spark/flame, auto ignition temperature is the temperature required for a liquid to self ignite. Flash point of petrol is well below freezing 0C. On the other hand diesel is over 50C. But pour diesel and petrol on to a hot surface and the diesel will self ignite first.

 

[rob2]

I would value educated advice on the issue of regulators (rather than a bland "this is the new standard"). My cooker is jetted for the old 27mbar pressure, which is why I still use camping regulators. What would the result be if I feed it from a 30mbar regulator?

Rob.

 

[sailorman]

It happened to me on a hunter 707 where the outboard is stored on its side whilst sailing, it was the spark or ignition system that started the fire. Either the filler cap or fuel shut off were leaking and then first pull and it went up in flames. I'm guessing all it took was a loose plug cap / HT lead and you have a spark. Petrol even vaporised needs 280C to ignite (auto ignition temperature). Flash point is much lower but this requires a spark/flame to ignite the liquid. Diesel has a much lower auto ignition temperature than petrol but a higher flash point.

Flash point is the temperature of the liquid, when the vapour given off will ignite with spark/flame, auto ignition temperature is the temperature required for a liquid to self ignite. Flash point of petrol is well below freezing 0C. On the other hand diesel is over 50C. But pour diesel and petrol on to a hot surface and the diesel will self ignite first.

Similar happened to a large Oyster with a remote tank stowed in a locker, due to the rise in ambient temp the tank vented. A spark did the rest.
Oyster sent out a news letter advising that all fuels ect should be stowed in the vented anchor locker

 

[DaveS]

I would value educated advice on the issue of regulators (rather than a bland "this is the new standard"). My cooker is jetted for the old 27mbar pressure, which is why I still use camping regulators. What would the result be if I feed it from a 30mbar regulator?

Rob.

It's only a sample of one, but I made exactly this change a few weeks ago and there is no obvious change in how the cooker works.