Neeves
Well-Known Member
Ignoring anything else - this is the big unknown - and getting the balance taxes every owner.
Jonathan
Yacht electrical system design
- Thread starter Carbalu
- Start date
Ignoring anything else - this is the big unknown - and getting the balance taxes every owner.
Jonathan
Carbalu
New Member
Yes will have room for them, the 175w renogy panels are a little smaller than those ones you mentioned but again there are so many choices in solar like everything else. It does make me question if I actually need the expense to go to lithium or if I just re-design and re wire with an AGM setup, I did see another topic you were commenting on in December 23 with someone that had 5 different wiring setups as it progressed with advice which was quite simple to follow. My only concern would be weight and space for the AGMs. Having a Quick Look at the power requirements I’d say would be around 200ah per 24 hours. I do however think I would like the ability for my wife to dry her hair (got to keep her happy and not really negotiable for her). Sailing will be a mixture of weekend, longer trips ie a week or two mostly at anchor, possibly keeping the boat on a mooring during sails but undecided on that yet.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
200 is very high consumption for a 30' boat. my last boat was a Bav 33 with all the usual electronics and fridge and my typical day /night at anchor was less than half that, typically around 80. No night sailing and no inverter. 3*95aH AGMs for domestic charged just by engine plus shorepower back at base. Never any problems with capacity for 3 or 4 days given the usual mix of motoring and sailing.
Your original proposal with lithium of that capacity and large solar looked more like a 35-40' liveaboard in hot climates where you can really gain from lithium high charge acceptance to dump solar and high demand from fridge, fans etc, but OTT for a weekend/holiday cruising 30' in this country. It is really a big step up in complexity and cost to go lithium/solar just to get the capability of drying hair while at anchor (puts on tin hat and ducks). BTW you mentioned having an arch for the solar. Don't know what boat you have but few 30' can really support an arch practically, aesthetically and perhaps most importantly from a stability point of view.
Your original proposal with lithium of that capacity and large solar looked more like a 35-40' liveaboard in hot climates where you can really gain from lithium high charge acceptance to dump solar and high demand from fridge, fans etc, but OTT for a weekend/holiday cruising 30' in this country. It is really a big step up in complexity and cost to go lithium/solar just to get the capability of drying hair while at anchor (puts on tin hat and ducks). BTW you mentioned having an arch for the solar. Don't know what boat you have but few 30' can really support an arch practically, aesthetically and perhaps most importantly from a stability point of view.
Carbalu
New Member
To be honest your comment wasn’t really any help at all, it focused on what you use not what I will, this is the whole reason I started this post for advice on what I can do to achieve not what I need to give up. I’ve known people on 34’ boats with easily double the amount of solar and battery capacity than I mentioned that regularly cruise around the south coast of the UK so my requirements I don’t think is that unreasonable. I want to be comfortable at sea and have creature comforts not just get by with a bucket of cold water and a desk lamp. And for solar arch, they really aren’t a massive issue as they really don’t weigh excessive amounts, have seen plenty of smaller boats with them and also small boats with Davits and dinghy’s on them which would also weigh quite a bit.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Many creature comforts are not best sourced via electric power in a small boat going cruising.
We like hot showers every day, and easily provided by a calorifier on the engine, heating via diesel heater and cooking via gas. These methods are very energy efficient.
We also have modest solar panels which keep the fridge / freezer running 7x24 and support the other domestic and sailing power needs.
Not yet bothered to swap out the AGM house batteries, but might consider LiFePO4 in future - though simply replacing the AGMs would be much cheaper and probably see out my cruising.
(Based upon primarily UK based cruising, for circa 4 months each year - often fully off grid.)
Not sure how much cruising you have yet done on the boat, but possibly worth doing for a season to try things before making major upgrades.
Carbalu
New Member
I agree and yes have thought about those things that you’ve mentioned. This is why it’s got me thinking if I really need to swap to lithium, I’m not happy with the electrical system on board and a lot of the wiring requires sorting and updating and thought if I’m going to do it I might as well sort the lot out and put the supporting systems in as well but I get what you mean thank you
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Sorry you took it that way. While it is true that a few people have gone the lithium route for the type of sailing you plan in the size of boat you have - many thousands have not and still manage to cruise in comfort with hot showers, decent cold beer and wine while supporting full electronics, bow thrusters, windlasses etc. Your requirements are nothing out of the ordinary and it is a matter of finding the right balance. I know you said cost is not an issue I expect you will find the incremental cost of going the lithium/solar arch route even with the fall in battery prices will more than double your budget. I know people put solar arches, davits etc on smaller boats but that does not mean it is always wise.
Carbalu
New Member
It’s fine, just trying to navigate to a solution, and I do agree with you in a way which is what I was saying in post #42, maybe I’m laying on the side of caution with the usage but would always lay on that side to ensure that I have plenty of power without having to constantly worry about what I’m using (within limits).
Tranona
Well-Known Member
OK but it is all too easy to get seduced by the promise of what you can do with new things until you work out what is possible given the constraints you work under. For example there is no way you can replenish 200Ah in a day with solar in the UK so you will have to run your engine a lot - then is your alternator capable of keeping up with the acceptance rate of your battery? Not sure how you got to 200Ah anyway as that is the sort of consumption, as I suggested earlier you might find on a full time liveaboard in hot climates. Appreciate you might have included some 240v usage through your inverter and if so what it is really telling you is that is a very high cost way of providing that function and why so few people actually do it unless they have a generator or limit use of those appliances to when on shorepower.
AGMs have proved well able to have enough storage and life for the type of usage you are thinking of. 10-15 years is typical. OK lithium will last longer and is useful if you can make use of the extra life. Same with the high charge acceptance - can you actually use it? The smaller size and weight is a benefit for some, but most cruising boats used in the way you describe have little difficulty in finding space for an appropriate size bank of LA batteries and standard alternators are adequate to charge them.
You don't say whether you have actually cruised with the boat you have, but I tend to agree with dunedin, best to get some experience with what you have as that will give a basis to work from before you start tearing it all apart. It is a massive job, lots of hours of work and head scratching and the simpler you can make it the better.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I support your idea that the hair dryer is non negotiable, or maybe your wife has firmly said non-negotiable. I also support the idea that its the 21st century and there should be no need to live in a rut defined by the joys of 1950s camping.
I confess not to be an expert on hair dryers but I am sure you can source 12v version and maybe a trip to a caravan retail outlet would provide a sensible compromise.
I would admit to thinking the hair dryer being solved by a complete rewiring and repowering of a 30' yacht is a marine equivalent of the sledge hammer and the nut analogy. There are other solutions. I also accept that you might have thought of other applications for the AC power, needed for the hair dryer (when the hair drier is not being used) and thus moving beyond the comforts of 1950s camping.
Jonathan
I confess not to be an expert on hair dryers but I am sure you can source 12v version and maybe a trip to a caravan retail outlet would provide a sensible compromise.
I would admit to thinking the hair dryer being solved by a complete rewiring and repowering of a 30' yacht is a marine equivalent of the sledge hammer and the nut analogy. There are other solutions. I also accept that you might have thought of other applications for the AC power, needed for the hair dryer (when the hair drier is not being used) and thus moving beyond the comforts of 1950s camping.
Jonathan
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sailoppopotamus
Well-Known Member
I have a 30ft boat with an SO that would also like to use a hair dryer. In summary, I've given up on making this possible.
The 12V hair dryers are reportedly rubbish -- they come out to 200-300W which is nowhere near powerful enough to accomplish their intended task, and because the market for them is practically non-existent there are no quality products out there. I concluded that only a mains-powered one will actually be useful. These draw an enormous amount of power -- a typical 1500W unit means a massive inverter pulling 125A from my batteries. I have 300Ah of AGM deep-cycle and (maybe due to ignorance) feel uncomfortable at the thought of subjecting my expensive house bank to that sort of load. Not to mention the massive inverter and associated cabling requirement. As a test I bought a 550W "hot air brush". The results were underwhelming. All in all, the project just didn't seem worth it. Getting a 800VA rather than a 500VA inverter, plus associated cabling, would set me back around 250 euros, add a big load to my precious house bank, and would only get me a lousy hot air brush that doesn't satisfy anybody. My SO will have to do without a hair dryer when away from a shore supply.
It all depends on what sort of cruising you intend to do. We cruise in Greece, mainly in the summer. A hair dryer is far from essential. If you tend to stay away from quays/marinas for weeks at a time, or at any rate are more adventurous with your cruising, you may see things differently. Hair drying aside, one advantage of a lithium based installation/healthy PV supply that you can also use to fire a kettle is your reduced dependency on LPG for cooking. If travelling to remote locations, it means you have to worry less about refilling your gas bottles.
It all depends on how you intend to use the boat.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Think outside the box.
There are alternatives that may merit exploring further
https://www.fruugoaustralia.com/usb...MI37fpvZaEhAMVMgh7Bx3_bgk5EAQYAyABEgK5jvD_BwE
Add on a Lithium power bank or 3.
Now whether a hair dryer using a USB charged lithium battery cuts the mustard, or actually dries hair I don't know - but it is an option that should not demand an inverter drawing 125 amps.
Not quite the same, in fact totally different, but we have been using lithium battery powered liquidisers (cheap as) to make 2 serve smoothies, recharged using USB + type C cables (and/or a lithium power bank). Why - well its the height of summer here and there is a surplus of ripe cheap fruit, mangoes, oranges, plums, raspberries, blue berries, bananas. We similarly have a lithium battery powered citrus (primarily oranges) juicer. Now we have used them - we would not be without either.
And a bit more lateral thinking turns up
https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-pxc-18v-cordless-heat-gun-pxhgs-550-skin-only_p0163616
Not a hair dryer but a similar concept.
This all seems an opportunity missed by Dyson.
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rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
Wife just goes an sits in the cockpit where the wind naturally blow dries her hair.
The most important to wife is hot water shower which can come from engine /electric heated clarifier or an instant gas water heater.
Second is a proper flushing loo
The most important to wife is hot water shower which can come from engine /electric heated clarifier or an instant gas water heater.
Second is a proper flushing loo
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Good that the panels fit.
200ah in 24hrs is a lot of power, you need a minimum of 400ah of lead acid batteries for that, assuming no charging, just to last 24hrs.
The Renogy panels will produce something like 60ah-70ah in 24hrs, each, given reasonable conditions and minimal shading.
So, if you use 200ah in 24hrs and only produce 120ah-140ah you are already into a 60ah - 80ah deficit. No matter how many batteries or what sort of batteries, you are short of power. Even with a 60ah deficit you would need to run your engine for something like 3 or 4 hours.
Throw in a cloudy day, with little to no Sunshine and you need to run the engine for 10-12 hours ! So first thing to do, is to use less power and/or generate more power.
I would say have enough battery storage for 48hrs of little to no solar charging, so with a 200ah consumption i would say you need 800ah, which is clearly too much weight. Fitting Lithium doesn't entirely help, as you just cannot generate enough power.
Typical domestic hair dryer will pull close to 200 amps through an inverter, that will discharge a 100ah battery to 50% (safe max discharge) in just 15 minutes.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
I would entirely agree that different solutions suit different purposes (and boat sizes - there is a world of a difference between the optimum solution for a full time liveaboard on a 45 footer in the Caribbean, compared to a 30 footer used for weekend and occasional week cruises in the UK. Big lithium bank, big solar array and inverters are great for the former.
In terms of using an electric kettle in an effort to save gas, it is worth reflecting that a small Camping Gas 907 cylinder has around 42kWh of energy. That is a very efficient source of power for heating water. And a spare cylinder will give perhaps a full season for weekend sailing.
To minimise gas usage the first priority for me is having two thermos flaks. And never leaving a harbour with shore power without filling both thermos with boiling water. Use the electric kettle in harbour, and also get a portable single ring induction hob for in harbour use (mine cost £35).
As said above, for such light usage other systems probably over sized sledge hammer.
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Carbalu
New Member
As i mentioned in a previous post i was laying on the side of caution i think with the usage but you have explained that pretty well to me. To be honest i think there maybe a way to get round alot of the high usage items by adopting different methods, i could realistically then say by doing this that whilst at anchor i could probably pull those figures down to about 100ah roughly, underway will be a little more obviously (around 140-150) with more systems running.
Pretty sure thinking about it there are rechargeable hair dryers out there or even 12v hair dryers so that may be way to 1. keep the Mrs happy and 2. doing away with the need for an inverter?
As mentioned before i had a good read through another post you were helping with andrew trayfoot, with some alterations in solar upgrades to his and higher battery ah's i think something similar to that one would be a good start? what do you think Paul?
Carbalu
New Member
All valid and great points to note thank you
sailoppopotamus
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I wasn't very clear, my argument was more that being able to use electricity towards cooking, even if not relying entirely on it, may increase your independence in remote locations where you might not be able to replenish your gas supply easily. And would give you some redundancy in case of some fault with the gas installation. For a weekend sailor neither of these points bears any relevance.
Humblebee
Well-Known Member
How about a hair dryer that uses a small gas cylinder? This is what my missus uses:
BaByliss 2583BU Pro Cordless Ceramic Gas Hair Curling Tong - Boots
BaByliss 2583BU Pro Cordless Ceramic Gas Hair Curling Tong - Boots
dunedin
Well-Known Member
I have sailed round Norway and Sweden, and never saw a single Camping Gas cylinder till Southern Sweden (after 6 weeks). Also spend a lot of time off grid in the NW wilds of the UK. But never yet had an issue with running out of Gas.
As in previous thread, use of thermos filled in harbour and induction hob ring in harbour are lessons learnt. And start with 2 full cylinders. Might last the OP more than a season.