Yacht design

[Wansworth]

All the boats I find from the 1970,those that I can afford have the feature of a small mainsail and giant Genoa theses days on a roller.On reflection yacht design was sidetracked into the holy grail of windwardness.Even it’s time it would have been easier ti slab reef the main instead of a family crew tacking a 110% Genoa..Now that I am looking at old boats I have the same problem tacking a big Genoa whereas. Bigger main and smaller Genoa would be within my physical limits.

 

[adwuk]

Isn't it just a case of setting up one of these older boats correctly. Our 1972 Nic 35 has slab reefing, and its 135% genoa is easily tacked single handed (with an auto helm doing the steering). When the wind gets up, we switch to a 100% jib which is even easier to tack. I know one owner who has extended his sailing by installing an electric winches. I admit that the 156% genoa that we use when racing needs a team of people to get it round the mast, but that is a different beast altogether!

 

[Wansworth]

Thinking to say have a roller Ginny that just reaches the capshroud so a much smaller sail and set a code0 off the wind or a cruising schute.it’s handy to see what is coming on the lee side.

 

[BobnLesley]

Odd. Most especially with roller reefing fitted,
I would contend that the large genoa/small mainsail is a better/safer system for short handed sailing; particularly so when things get lively, which to me when ease/safety are at their most important.

 

[neil_s]

Agree with adwuk above - genoa is now at the back of the sail locker and I have a 100% working jib. Easy for single handing and you can see around. Boat goes nearly as fast, too!

 

[Concerto]

The larger genoa and small mainsail on the masthead rigged 1970's boats was due to a perceived rating advantage under the old RORC rule and early IOR rule.

One of the reasons I bought a Fulmar (designed 1979) is that she sails very well as she was not designed to any rule. She has an easy to handle rig as it is a true ¾ rig, so the genoa is smaller than a masthead rig. Also I have reduced the area of the genoa from 150% to 130% for easier handling. The big full length batten mainsail is on slab reefing and is not difficult to reef from the cockpit or drop into a stack pak.

 

[adwuk]

Thinking to say have a roller Ginny that just reaches the capshroud so a much smaller sail and set a code0 off the wind or a cruising schute.it’s handy to see what is coming on the lee side.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable approach for wind above 15 knots. For us, below 10 knots of breeze, we would be totally underpowered, and so the genoa would be back out again. If you have roller reefing, you can make these changes without physically changing the headsail.

 

[Wansworth]

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable approach for wind above 15 knots. For us, below 10 knots of breeze, we would be totally underpowered, and so the genoa would be back out again. If you have roller reefing, you can make these changes without physically changing the headsail.

Quite a lump of rolled up sail on the wind

 

[adwuk]

Quite a lump of rolled up sail on the wind

Not excessive, but if it concerns you look at the forecast and put the right sail on for the day. If I was expecting winds in the 15-30 knot range, I would start with the working jib.

 

[Wing Mark]

Some people enjoy tacking a boat up an estuary, others will put the motor on if more than one tack is called for?
A big roller genoa is a good way of getting a lot of sail area, but maybe not ideal for people who want to do a lot of short-handed short tacking.
A non overlapping fractional rig is more efficient and easy to tack. But to g the same sail area, you need a taller mast.

Depending on where and how you sail, you may want more or less sail area. Do you want your boat to make progress in a light breeze, or will you motor if the wind isn't what you'd choose?

There are lots of boats 'in between'.

Cost no object, buying a new boat, I'd have a tall carbon rig with a blade jib .
In reality, I'm looking at compromises, a 7/8 fractional, moderate overlap, roller genoa.
I expect that means I will motor a bit more than if I had the extra £80k to buy a new boat.

 

[Daydream believer]

Odd. Most especially with roller reefing fitted,
I would contend that the large genoa/small mainsail is a better/safer system for short handed sailing; particularly so when things get lively, which to me when ease/safety are at their most important.

You clearly have not sailed one of the more modern designs with self tacking jib. I have not used my 135% genoa more than 6 times in 18 years. Even in fairly light winds I find that the boat is as quick as many others & there is no noticeable disadvantage until the wind is so light that most are motoring anyway.. It is far better when the wind gets up & tacking is instant.

 

[Laser310]

All the boats I find from the 1970,those that I can afford have the feature of a small mainsail and giant Genoa theses days on a roller.On reflection yacht design was sidetracked into the holy grail of windwardness.Even it’s time it would have been easier ti slab reef the main instead of a family crew tacking a 110% Genoa..Now that I am looking at old boats I have the same problem tacking a big Genoa whereas. Bigger main and smaller Genoa would be within my physical limits.

It wasn't so much a case of optimizing for upwind sailing, as living within the construction limitations of the time.., as well as the racing rules of the times.

I think nearly everyone today would agree that a modern non-overlapping rig with a tall main and high aspect jib goes upwind better than those old boats - for a given sail area and waterline length

of course, it isn't just the rig - hulls and keels have change too.

a modern rig requires a bit more stability - a lower vertical center of gravity, which was hard to achieve with materials and construction techniques available in the 70's.

racing rules back then penalized mainsail area relative to headsail area - and even if a boat wasn't designed to a rule, they soften incorporated the trends of the time - just like boats today.

still, those old boats can be okay for cruising and recreational sailing with say a 105% jib, if you sail in a windy area - 15kts is fine

5kts with a 105 and you will be pretty underpowered.

putting someone down on the leeeward rail grinding in a jib all day is probably a good way to ensure they don't come back.., unless they are 18yrs old and don't know better...

 

[doug748]

All the boats I find from the 1970,those that I can afford have the feature of a small mainsail and giant Genoa theses days on a roller.On reflection yacht design was sidetracked into the holy grail of windwardness.Even it’s time it would have been easier ti slab reef the main instead of a family crew tacking a 110% Genoa..Now that I am looking at old boats I have the same problem tacking a big Genoa whereas. Bigger main and smaller Genoa would be within my physical limits.

Most boats of that vintage probably never had the huge No 1 genoa specified, even when new - unless they raced. If they did it will be long gone and replaced with something high cut and 120% on a roller, for buggering around aka: cruising.
So it's a non issue for me.

You will luxuriate in the advantage of not having to monkey about with trim, mast bend and having to reef the main left right and centre.

.

 

[Daydream believer]

You will luxuriate in the advantage of not having to monkey about with trim, mast bend and having to reef the main left right and centre.

Perhaps not mast bend, ( because the boat may not be suitable for such adjustment- mine is) but sail trimming is still a very important part of sailing & the sailing "experience". Well it is to me anyway. To me sailing is not just about sticking some rags up & drifting along. It is working wind & getting the most from it. That means trimming the sails, looking for the breeze etc etc
As for having a jib with several rolls reefed into it so that one is left with a huge baggy tarpauline, I would find that very unsatisfactory. That being said, one only has to go sailing on a weekend with 10-12 kts to see that many seem to fixated with the experience. I often wonder how much sail some would have up if the wind hit 25 kts.

 

[BobnLesley]

You clearly have not sailed one of the more modern designs with self tacking jib. I have not used my 135% genoa more than 6 times in 18 years. Even in fairly light winds I find that the boat is as quick as many others & there is no noticeable disadvantage until the wind is so light that most are motoring anyway.. It is far better when the wind gets up & tacking is instant.

A 'case of horses for courses' then? I'm prepared to bet that your rarely used genoa would see more action if you were doing a few downwind ocean passages.

 

[Laminar Flow]

The small main, large genny was a development of the IOR rule.

A large, overlapping genny is actually not that efficient going to weather; they are better for reaching or off wind work.

Roller reefing essentially killed the 150% or larger genny; you simply can't roll it up halfway and still call it an air foil. 130%-135% is about the max for a somewhat useful shape.

In my neck of the woods we have notoriously light winds in the summer and all boats of that vintage and in the hank-on era had large gennies.

As the headsails have gotten smaller to accommodate furlers, it has left a lot of these "vintage" boats underrigged in comparison to current designs. Some times this is just on paper as SA/D ratios are no longer calculated on sail carried to windward, but on foresail triangle + main; if one were to factor in the area for an overlapping genny one would find little difference in that respect.

 

[Sybarite]

The small main, large genny was a development of the IOR rule.

A large, overlapping genny is actually not that efficient going to weather; they are better for reaching or off wind work.

Roller reefing essentially killed the 150% or larger genny; you simply can't roll it up halfway and still call it an air foil. 130%-135% is about the max for a somewhat useful shape.

In my neck of the woods we have notoriously light winds in the summer and all boats of that vintage and in the hank-on era had large gennies.

As the headsails have gotten smaller to accommodate furlers, it has left a lot of these "vintage" boats underrigged in comparison to current designs. Some times this is just on paper as SA/D ratios are no longer calculated on sail carried to windward, but on foresail triangle + main; if one were to factor in the area for an overlapping genny one would find little difference in that respect.

In Sailing Panda Vlog the couple changed their genoa on an Amel Sharki (a 1970'sdesign) and went from a 140% to a 110%. Most of the time they sailed just as quickly with a lot less effort. They kept the large genny when they anticipated long offwind passages.

 

[Daydream believer]

A 'case of horses for courses' then? I'm prepared to bet that your rarely used genoa would see more action if you were doing a few downwind ocean passages.

And where does one get many of those circumnavigating the UK, English Channel cruising or Dutch canals? I cannot think of many trips where down wind has actually been for more than a few hours at a time. Even then it has involved a change of course somewhere & the ST has come into its own again. That is over an average of 2K miles per annum for the last 18 years ( discounting the last 2 of course).

 

[Concerto]

In Sailing Panda Vlog the couple changed their genoa on an Amel Sharki (a 1970'sdesign) and went from a 140% to a 110%. Most of the time they sailed just as quickly with a lot less effort. They kept the large genny when they anticipated long offwind passages.

Although I reduced my genoa size, I cannot agree that the boat sails at the same speed. From my years of offshore racing I can certainly say when 2 identical boats are sailed with different sized genoas and not at the sail plan limit of wind, the boat with the smaller headsail always dropped behind. The speed difference might only be ¼ of a knot, but over 8 hours that is 2 miles lost distance, or 12 hours is 3 miles, etc. Cruising sailors should always try to make a good sail set as so many miles can be lost therefore increasing the time to arrive at a destination. This is why I am a sail tweaker and usually sail as fast as most 34 to 37 foot yachts, only to be told I have a quick boat.

 

[Daydream believer]

Although I reduced my genoa size, I cannot agree that the boat sails at the same speed. From my years of offshore racing I can certainly say when 2 identical boats are sailed with different sized genoas and not at the sail plan limit of wind, the boat with the smaller headsail always dropped behind. The speed difference might only be ¼ of a knot, but over 8 hours that is 2 miles lost distance, or 12 hours is 3 miles, etc. Cruising sailors should always try to make a good sail set as so many miles can be lost therefore increasing the time to arrive at a destination. This is why I am a sail tweaker and usually sail as fast as most 34 to 37 foot yachts, only to be told I have a quick boat.

I do not think it is quite as cut & dried as was a few years ago. I raced EAORA extensively in the 70s & 80s & we would use the big genny in light airs, the crew changing down size as the wind increased. In the Stella class club racing we carried the genny up to F6 & put 3 rolls in the main finding that far quicker than changing the genny for a smaller jib & full mainsail.
However, whilst my genoa is quicker off the wind, in my Hanse, it soon overpowers the boat upwind in 15kts plus. This means a furl & an inefficient sail. It is far from easy to change sail on deck & hoist a battened ST whilst under way single handed. I cannot sail as high with the genoa. It is a good quality sail.
I have found that with my 95% self tacking sail I can ease the main more than I can when sailing with a genoa & use its drive better. Plus I can point markedly higher upwind than boats with big genoas. So if one is having a tacking duel, or even long legs, with a similar sized boat with a big genny in 10-12kts + of wind one can hold one's own by virtue of the fact one does not sail so far. One only has to look at the "J" boats with their blade jibs to see how effective they are upwind.
I cruise in company with a 40ft Jeneau design based on the old 1 Tonne series. They have an enormous genoa bought last year. In upwind I really annoy them because I sometimes leave them behind, sailing so much higher. Off the wind it is a different matter of course & they are gone.

Our cruise in company motto ( taken from the end of my first club talk)
"Now remember- this is a cruise in company, it is NOT a race-- but I am gonna get there first"