rogerball0
N/A
That was the bit about 'have a read of the first story' still..........the difference i've experienced between ally and carbon is ally generally gives you abit of warning, carbon tends not to.
Would you have a Carbon mast
- Thread starter sailorman
- Start date
bbg
Well-Known Member
My experience is defective products can fail, regardless of material.
And carbon may fail in a spectacular way, but all things being equal it is stronger than ally.
And carbon may fail in a spectacular way, but all things being equal it is stronger than ally.
Norman_E
Well-Known Member
Does anyone else remember the owners of Oyster setting out on the ARC a few years ago with a new high tech carbon mast equipped boat and every intention of getting to the Caribbean first? They ended up in the Azores after being dismasted!
xyachtdave
Well-Known Member
Actually I think within that figure you got a deeper keel too, so maybe nearer £100k.
Still not cheap....
Edit -
I've rung him and it was listed at £105k plus vat and negotiated down to £60K plus vat without a bigger keel. Something to do with not making one with an aluminium mast before and wanting to keep the r&d to a minimum.
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sailorman
Well-Known Member
Yes a full carbon boat weighing in at some 30t lighter than std boat (if the ole memory is correct). The mast failed @ the goose neck i believe
Ceirwan
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if I agree on that one.
I can carry all my 1x19 stainless rigging in one arm. I definitely can't pick up my mast in the same way, although I agree fibre rigging does provide good eight savings. Just waiting for someone to start selling dyneema dux online over here.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
you would not manage that with a single Oyster 82 Cap shroud let alone 2 of them
lw395
Well-Known Member
An alloy mast for an Oyster 40ft is seriously heavy.
Once tried lifting one end of it with four blokes.
I can easily lift the forestay with tuffluff.
I reckon it all scales up with an 80ft boat.
I am surprised the cost delta is still so big, there must be a lot of carbon masts being built now, it's easier to make a one-off carbon mast than to create a new extrusion die.
Possibly we are talking leading-edge of technology carbon, compared to a boring old ali stick.
A like-for like replacement might be cheaper?
sailorman
Well-Known Member
1 x rod cap for an 82 is £9k
Ceirwan
Well-Known Member
The mast would surely be proportionally heavier as well though?
Although Ideally for less weight aloft a carbon mast with say PBO rigging sounds ideal. It think half of the battle is convincing people that using fibres to hold the mast up instead of wire can be as safe if not safer.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
When I was looking a spar replacement, the major part of the cost lay in the former (jig) for the mast - the actual mast itself was quite little more expensive than alloy.
I suspect therefore, if you buy a carbon mast already in production, the price difference, from aluminum; will not be more than double.i
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Seajet
...
How do carbon masts get on with sharp impacts, and lightning strikes ?
Serious question, I was a tech photographer with BAe when the Harrier II GR5 was introduced, with a carbon fibre wing ( at the time largest carbon structure in the world ) nose and tailplane.
There was much worry when ammo links hit the carbon tailplane on firing trials, as it was / is reckoned C/F suffering a hard sharp impact can look fine externally but be delaminated like plywood inside; any impact resulted in much ultrasound testing.
When 2 GR5's were hit by lightning I had to go to RAF Wittering to photograph them, the external evidence was a graphite-like track from the aircraft spine where the lightning hit, to the wingtip where it earthed.
Much wailing and gnashing of teeth, each wing was $7 million in those days !
So is it a sensible seagoing material now ? I know it's light and strong in a perfect world, but would it take the knocks - and maybe lightning - an offshore boat must expect ?
Edit; I'm talking about a boat funded by a relatively normal cruising / occasional racing owner, not a sponsor or Boeing...
Serious question, I was a tech photographer with BAe when the Harrier II GR5 was introduced, with a carbon fibre wing ( at the time largest carbon structure in the world ) nose and tailplane.
There was much worry when ammo links hit the carbon tailplane on firing trials, as it was / is reckoned C/F suffering a hard sharp impact can look fine externally but be delaminated like plywood inside; any impact resulted in much ultrasound testing.
When 2 GR5's were hit by lightning I had to go to RAF Wittering to photograph them, the external evidence was a graphite-like track from the aircraft spine where the lightning hit, to the wingtip where it earthed.
Much wailing and gnashing of teeth, each wing was $7 million in those days !
So is it a sensible seagoing material now ? I know it's light and strong in a perfect world, but would it take the knocks - and maybe lightning - an offshore boat must expect ?
Edit; I'm talking about a boat funded by a relatively normal cruising / occasional racing owner, not a sponsor or Boeing...
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snooks
Well-Known Member
Depends what sort of sailing I was doing and where I was going. I'd be happy with a CF mast for the sailing I do, but would it be worth in for the sailing I do? No. That doesn't mean I would like one.
For every tale of one carbon rig coming down there are hundreds more of them being fitted on successful race boats. Take for instance a small slow boat called Wild Oats XI she sails a few miles, has a carbon mast and seems to do OK.
And is it actually the fault of the mast material or the fittings attached to it or even the crew or skipper on board?
Fittster
Well-Known Member
Are there any issues with UV degradation?
Olianta
Active Member
There is a good arcticle on John Harries site - http://www.morganscloud.com/series/carbon-fibre-mast/
Lozzer
Well-Known Member
We have opted for Carbon on new build Oyster. @ 30m tall for sure there is going to be some significant weight saving. As others have said you can break anything if you try hard enough.
Seriously expensive piece of kit as well, you could by a nice house for the cost of it.
Seriously expensive piece of kit as well, you could by a nice house for the cost of it.
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
It was Richard Matthews' personal Oyster 72. The boat had been built with a Carbon Hull, cored joinery and a Carbon mast and weighed in at about 10 tonnes lighter than the standard 72. He did a Fastnet on it before selling it on. Oyster's brokerage house have it on their books at the moment
ip485
Well-Known Member
I dont know enough about carbon masts on large yachts.
I do have a carbon spinnaker pole which must be 20+ feet which I love because it is so light and I can lift easily myself. I also know that after not that many years the coating will degrade in UV and needs repainting. I had a carbon mast on a Boss many years ago and many friends have had carbon masts on other dinghies over the years. They have all eventually had the same experience with UV degredation and while the mast can be repainted with a two part polyurethane it is quite a big job especially to do well so I would want to be certain I wouldnt run into that issue - I expect it is unavoidable. (I have just repainted by pole with six coats which took a good few days albeit it was relatively straight forward).
As other have said I might be slightly more concerned about the results of lightening and I would definitely want to know that the mast was from a very reputable supplier. I have had some dealings with carbon on vehicles. While it is a very strong and light material it still proves reasonable difficult to work with and if not properly formed and saturated with the correct amount of resin it is very easy to introduce voids which will be very fragile. I suspect the manufacturing process is still not as well developed as aluminium extrusion and so for that reason there is more risk of manufacturing defects.
I do have a carbon spinnaker pole which must be 20+ feet which I love because it is so light and I can lift easily myself. I also know that after not that many years the coating will degrade in UV and needs repainting. I had a carbon mast on a Boss many years ago and many friends have had carbon masts on other dinghies over the years. They have all eventually had the same experience with UV degredation and while the mast can be repainted with a two part polyurethane it is quite a big job especially to do well so I would want to be certain I wouldnt run into that issue - I expect it is unavoidable. (I have just repainted by pole with six coats which took a good few days albeit it was relatively straight forward).
As other have said I might be slightly more concerned about the results of lightening and I would definitely want to know that the mast was from a very reputable supplier. I have had some dealings with carbon on vehicles. While it is a very strong and light material it still proves reasonable difficult to work with and if not properly formed and saturated with the correct amount of resin it is very easy to introduce voids which will be very fragile. I suspect the manufacturing process is still not as well developed as aluminium extrusion and so for that reason there is more risk of manufacturing defects.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
It is interesting the boat was a cat doesn't heel thus extra load is put on the mast, I wonder if that wasn't allowed for in the design. I've seen many racing yachts with carbon masts and they don't seem to have problems. What I wouldn't have is a carbon spinnaker pole, we saw over dozen broken ones when we were doing the ARC finish line the boats had 30 knots gusting 50. That's along with broken rigging, broken rudders, broken booms, broken boom vangs and torn sails the largest number were the spinnakers that have slots in them bout three quarters of the way up, I can't remember the name.
As said alloy masts break too.
As said alloy masts break too.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Parasail
