Would you fit engine driven bilge pump?

[prv]

If you have real emerency you already have an engine driven pump it's the cooling intake pump, just take the cooling water feed hose off the stop valve and fix it as low down in the bige as possible

Yes, and the amount of water it chucks out the exhaust is pretty feeble. Mine is, anyway.

Pete

 

[prv]

I'm no expert in wooden boats, but there definitely seems to be much more of a case for a serious bilge pump in wood than in fibreglass. Our boats don't leak through the skin unless we hit something quite hard - yours does (your 1/3 of a bucket), and the rate could get a lot worse in heavy weather as the planks work, perhaps some of the caulking comes out, and even a plank or two could be sprung by the impact of a big wave. My copy of Adlard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing is an old edition, in which most of the boats in the stories are wooden, and they all describe taking on substantial amounts of water for the above reasons (and also leaks in cockpits, locker lids, doghouses, etc).

A few weeks ago you were asking about drogues for heavy-weather use - if you're preparing for such weather I reckon a big pump will be needed before a drogue is.

Purely on price, a builders' petrol-driven frame pump will have a much larger capacity than what they might fit to your Beta, and cost 1/3 as much. Can't really recommend it though unless you have a lot more stowage space on your 25 footer than we do on our 24 - they're pretty big!

Pete

 

[PhillM]

Thanks guys, interesting mix of answers. I guess I was thinking about:

Loss of a skin fitting
Hitting somthing hard and cracking the hull, perhaps springing a plank
Getting caught by a big wave and being swamped

I was working out power management and this led me to looking at either how to add more power or better still how not to use it in the first place. We use 1amp for instruments and 2amp for tri light (yes I know I could go LED and will one day) so we use about 40 amp a day.

With the new engine / alt we could run it for an hour a day and recharge.

However, my electric bilge pump takes 3-4 amp (I think) so I would not have a lot spare electricity in an emergency.

So, I guess the options are to run the engine, to charge the battery and run the bilge pump or have a engine driven pump, or both.

As I said in the OP I'm not looking to cross the Atlantic - just be channel / coastal so in the worst case I need to have enough juice to keep afloa while calling for help.

 

[Tranona]

Your boat has lasted 40 odd years without one, so difficult to see why you should need one now. Better things to spend your money on.

 

[PhillM]

Your boat has lasted 40 odd years without one, so difficult to see why you should need one now. Better things to spend your money on.

Agreed but I am told that its easier / cheaper to factory fit than to retro fit. So, it looks like I need to make a decision at the time I buy the engine - which is this or next week - on somthing that may / may not be wanted in the future.

Has anybody retro fitted a Jabsco pump to a Beta 14 / 16? If the answer is yes, then I can put the engine in now and worry about it later. if it really is a factory fit or nothing, then either I need to look at a different engine or make a decision and stick with it.

 

[SHUG]

An engine driven bilge pump puts out a massive amount of water. The equivalent electric pump would draw about 50amps at 12V

 

[prv]

I can't see why it would have to be factory fit. After all, Beta don't build the engines, they buy in Kubota industrial engines and bolt things to them.

Only thing I can think of is that they fit an additional pulley for it. In which case, perhaps you could ask them to fit the extra pulley but not the pump, so you can add the pump at a later date if you decide to. This kind of thing is a longstanding practice when the military is trying to save money - "Fitted for but not with"

Pete

 

[pvb]

You can retrofit a pump to any engine, but it's much less easy than a factory-fit. However, my original question remains, what's the capacity of the proposed pump? If it's only a small pump, you'd be better off with electric pumps. If on the other hand it's a meaty pump, it could be worth the £700.

 

[NUTMEG]

Crabber

My new to me Mk1 Crabber has a valve to divert cooling water from hull fitting to bilge. Really can not see he point but there you are. It also has another valve to divert water to exhaust elbow down a very long pipe to the cutless bearing. What's that all about?

Got a good manual bilge pump and a bucket too!!

 

[prv]

My new to me Mk1 Crabber has a valve to divert cooling water from hull fitting to bilge. Really can not see he point but there you are. It also has another valve to divert water to exhaust elbow down a very long pipe to the cutless bearing. What's that all about?

The first one will be in order to use the engine cooling pump as a bilge pump. As mentioned above, I don't find this particularly convincing on the average yacht engine due to the relatively small amount of water (just look at your exhaust underway to see how much) and the potential for sucking crud into the engine and making the situation worse (since the pump is usually after the strainer). Different story with a big mobo engine - the size of their impellers is downright intimidating

I guess the other pipe is something to do with flushing the cutless bearing, or possibly burping a volvo-style stern gland if you have one. Don't want to use it for long, though, or the hot exhaust without water will burn the inside of the rubber pipe.

Pete

 

[ridgy]

Two of these at different heights with 1.5 inch hoses would seem to cover the situation.
http://www.yachtbits.com/johnson_pumps/johnson_high_performance_bilge_pump_2060gph_130lpm_12v.php

Spend the rest on an epirb and a liferaft.

 

[Tranona]

Agreed but I am told that its easier / cheaper to factory fit than to retro fit. So, it looks like I need to make a decision at the time I buy the engine - which is this or next week - on somthing that may / may not be wanted in the future.

Has anybody retro fitted a Jabsco pump to a Beta 14 / 16? If the answer is yes, then I can put the engine in now and worry about it later. if it really is a factory fit or nothing, then either I need to look at a different engine or make a decision and stick with it.

You have to ask yourself when have you ever thought you needed one. Don't think I have ever seen one fitted to a small sailboat auxiliary - even for a wooden boat that does take in water a bit. If you have a high demand for pumping, spend the money on fixing the source of the leak. While the possibility of being able to pump more water if you have a major failure seems attractive, the probability of that happening is so remote, and you already have manual and electric pumps anyway.

I can see why Beta offer them as there are workboat applications where the feature may be of value, but I have real difficulty in seeing value in a yacht. Looks like a solution looking for a problem to solve!

If you are going to retrofit, you will need the PTO shaft to take the extra pulley - but does not make sense to retrofit. What would change your decision once you have the engine fitted?

 

[PhillM]

Now I understand.

I have had a lengthy and very helpful chat with Beta. The problem with retro fit is that the pump has to be mounted to the engine so that it moves with it. Apparently if it does not move with the engine it can cause additional wear to the belt.

The units supplied are the Jabsco and you can select which one you want fitted. Beta then create a custom mounting rail that is bolted to the engine mounts. The pump then sits on this. To retro fit would mean lifting the engine, to fit the rail.

There are other ways to mount the pump and we chatted about several that would be acceptable. What I have learned is that to retro fit will cost more than factory fitted, might take a bit of messing about to achieve, but could be done.

Decision made. No pump from day one and if I ever feel the need, I will have to accept that it will cost a little more than it might have done if I had a factory fitted unit.

Thank everyone, as always a really helpful set of replies that have shaped my thinking and helped me to move on with my project.

 

[PhillM]

What would change your decision once you have the engine fitted?

Going offshore.

 

[Bobobolinsky]

Your boat has lasted 40 odd years without one, so difficult to see why you should need one now. Better things to spend your money on.

Thanks, chugging through this threadno one has said

Save the money. Fix the leak.

Five litres a day, pumping every two hours

 

[lw395]

Thanks, chugging through this threadno one has said

Save the money. Fix the leak.

Five litres a day, pumping every two hours

To be fair, 5 litres a day is not a lot.
That implies 2/3 pint every time you pump.
Half of that probably runs back through the bilge pump.
I have seen similar levels of leak stay the same for many seasons.
Sometimes it is more destructive to take the boat apart to mend a small leak.
The question is, how much worse will it get, and how bad is it in a stiff breeze?

Is it one fixable defect, or many small ones?

 

[Bobobolinsky]

5 litres a day is not alot, but flattens auto bilge pump batteries.

It's a wooden boat, from experience it can only get worse until one day only the tip of the mast is showing. If it works in weather, double the ribs, recaulk her, renew fastenings, better than losing her, She won't sink when you are there, she will quietly go down in a rainstorm on her own

 

[PhillM]

5 litres a day is not alot, but flattens auto bilge pump batteries.

It's a wooden boat, from experience it can only get worse until one day only the tip of the mast is showing. If it works in weather, double the ribs, recaulk her, renew fastenings, better than losing her, She won't sink when you are there, she will quietly go down in a rainstorm on her own

5 litre bucket - 1/3 is less than 2L - OK that's 2L too much but I am dammed if i can find a leak.

Since we fixed the deck leaks and rebuilt the cockpit we don't get any fresh water in - she is dry at the mooring.

Out at sea, under motor or sail, we make a bit of water. Initially wondered about engine / sea water or stern gland but nothing found so far. One theory is that the engine drops the water into the bilge when its has been stopped.

Only place not inspected is under the engine - and guess what I plan to do when the old one is out!

I also plan to take her out for a sail before we put everything back in, with the inside of the hull lined with newspaper - so we can see what gets wet - that may give us a clue where we have a leak.

 

[prv]

she is dry at the mooring.

Out at sea, under motor or sail, we make a bit of water.

Hull tight below the waterline, but dried out and leaking slightly above it?

Pete

 

[fisherman]

Hull tight below the waterline, but dried out and leaking slightly above it?

Pete

I know someone who spent 39 hours pumping and bailing, in a gale. She was tight at rest. The two frames in way of the mast partners were cracked both sides. Caulking the garboards seemed to work, until there was another breeze.....