Wooden restoration

[pmagowan]

I posted similar in the PBO but it was suggested that here was a better place.

I have a 27 1/2 foot Honeybee yacht of mahogony carvel construction with teak deck. It is a lovely wee boat and I have been very pleased with it since purchase this summer. It was a little neglected and needs some work. I like working with wood and am handy enough. I built a new tiller (when the first gave way (rot)) and have just completed a teak 3 leaf table for down below.

We have got it out and transported to our yard where it sits awaiting attention. I am getting busy with nitromors to remove all hull paint. I am thinking ahead to what I am going to do when i am down to wood.

It is a 50 year old boat so there will be a few blemishes and probably small amounts of rot. Does anyone have any hints and tips about how to go about things.

I intend to coat with epiphanes paint using a roller and tipping. Prior to this do I need to scrape out the caulking, do I need to hoke out any 'soft' wood? Should I treat the timber with something? What would be the best thing to replace caulking and fill in any defects.

I have lots of queries about how you would check keel bolts also and if removing them is always required.

Sorry for long post but I thought i would give you the background. I may get my technologically feeble brain round to posting pics if i can work out how. Any advice on any aspect would be more than welcome.

Thanks in advance,
Paddy

 

[BlueLancer]

Before you go mad and start stripping the hull. Check over the hull carefully to see if there are any cracks or bulges along the seams between the planks, this will indicate if there are any loose planks.If so then you will have to remove the fixings to refasten.This will also give the oppertunity to check for any damged frames. Remember to remove the bungs first before you knock out the boat nails from the inside. The bungs should have only been stuck in with varnish or paint.Drill a hole in the middle of the bung and collapse away from the edge towards the middle of the hole you have drilled, this will prevent damage to the bung hole and allow access to any screws if they have ben used.If you use a old file with the tang bent over this can be used to remove the old sealant in the seams, grind the tang down and pull along the seam with care so as not to damage the edges of the planks.You can then remove the old caulking cotton to replace with new.Only do one plank at a time, this prevents distortion of the boat, same as if you have to replace any frames. As to sealent to go on top of the cotton you can use Sika Flex 221.Any small soft spots on the planking can be sorted by graving in small pieces of wood and fairing in.If there are a lot in one plank probably better to replace the plank.That should get you started, if I can be of any more help pm me. There will be more info along shortly from more experienced peeps than me. PS I recommend Jim Trefethen's book Wooden Boat Renovation

 

[Kukri]

Whoa!

Before you start, you need to do some serious reading; don't rely on advice that you get on the Internet - asking around a local boatyard you can judge the quality of the advice by the adviser's boat, but you can't do that here.

In Britain, Michael Verney's books are good if dated, as is John Scarlett's book.

Nip across to the Woodenboat website and see what they have to offer in the field of boat maintenance.

If you plan on stripping the hull with Nitromors you will be spending a small fortune. Use a gas blowtorch.

Leave the caulking alone unless you have a good reason to think it needs attention. If it does you will probably just need to rake out the stopping, harden up and re-stop. This should not need doing more than once every couple of decades.

Knock one keelbolt out to check it - remember, the bolt is quite long, so you need to think how you will do this.

Above all, read plenty before you get started.

 

[pmagowan]

Thanks Bluelancer and Minn. I have quite a few ancient books on the subject so the sources you have given may be more up to date. I have already given her a good once over. There seems to be little in the way of cracking at seams. I was trying to remove the paint with a blow torch but it was a slow and tedious job, the nitromors is not cheap but seems to be much more efficient. Maybe I dont have a good enough blowtorch? I have also been thinking about the keelbolts, where she sits it is going to be difficult to get them out the bottom. Might have to move her over a manhole or something!

Does anyone know if these epoxy treatments are any good? They sound wonderful but i am always sceptical and at least I know where I am with untreated wood.

Thanks again and any further thoughts gratefully recieved

Paddy

 

[Tranona]

Does anyone know if these epoxy treatments are any good? They sound wonderful but i am always sceptical and at least I know where I am with untreated wood.

Thanks again and any further thoughts gratefully recieved

Paddy

Epoxy has its place. Suggest you goto www.wessex-resins.com for information. They publish a lot of useful material on using epoxy in wooden boat repairs.

 

[Kukri]

Thanks Bluelancer and Minn. I have quite a few ancient books on the subject so the sources you have given may be more up to date. I have already given her a good once over. There seems to be little in the way of cracking at seams. I was trying to remove the paint with a blow torch but it was a slow and tedious job, the nitromors is not cheap but seems to be much more efficient. Maybe I dont have a good enough blowtorch? I have also been thinking about the keelbolts, where she sits it is going to be difficult to get them out the bottom. Might have to move her over a manhole or something!

Does anyone know if these epoxy treatments are any good? They sound wonderful but i am always sceptical and at least I know where I am with untreated wood.

Thanks again and any further thoughts gratefully recieved

Paddy

Be very cautious with epoxy; it has its place, mainly in scarph joints that won't be exposed to heat, and in bonding and coating plywood, but it has no place as a coating for actual wood - you will end up trapping moisture inside and triggering rot.

You need a bigger blowlamp if you are getting quicker results with Nitromors! The type that is fed by a rubber hose from a Calor canister, adjustable, with a flame about an inch wide. You can probably hire one. Or the old paraffin type work well and may be cheaper for a single job.

 

[Kukri]

By and large, wooden boats have not changed very much and methods and materials for maintaining them have not changed much either - indeed, most professional boatbuilders will say that more damage is done by amateurs trying to use new ideas and new materials than by anything else.

So old books can be relied on although some of them contain recipes using stuff that would get you arrested now - asking your local Boots for twenty pounds of arsenic is no longer recommended...

If the seams are not badly cracked don't touch them - they will be fine.

"Mahogany" has come to mean "any red coloured wood from somewhere warmer" and it can be impossible to know exactly what you have got. It will generallt tend to go black where it has been wet for any length of time, and if left long enough it will go soft, if its a local problem fit a graving piece (using epoxy and some very sharp tools, for a good job)

Remember, you really do need four coats of primer over bare wood before starting on the undercoats.

 

[pmagowan]

Thanks Minn and Tranona

I am a bit of a traditionalist with wood anyway so I would tend to stay away from new treatments unless I was told it is stupid not to use them. The mahogany appears to be mahogany and as the boat is 50 years old it is probably of the 'rape and pillage' variety rather than the farmed stuff. It has gone black where in contact with water. Generally it looks in good nic but I need to get a bit more off it to get a really good look. She has been in the water for probably 2 years without coming out and the seams look very tight currently but perhaps that will change as she dries.
Don't worry about the layers of paint, I am not going to go to all this trouble and then skimp on that
Would the sikaflex be the best stuff to fill in any dents etc or should i use some of that chalky stuff that is dotted here and there already?

I will no doubt be asking loads more questions as once the hull is done I have the deck to patch up, chain plates to look at, coach roof to stop dripping, and change of internal layout to accomplish.

Should be fun
Paddy

 

[Kukri]

Not a case for Sikaflex in my opinion; stick with the traditional stuffs.

You'll find two types on your boat:

1. The putty in the caulking seams (the function is to smooth over the seam and keep water away from the caulking cotton) is linseed oil putty to which white lead paste (above the waterline) and red lead (below the w/l - it will be pink in colour) has been added. Prime seams before applying.

2. The filler on the topsides in way of minor unfairnesses is Trowel Cement which is actually a very fine stopper and is applied with a stripping knife after the first coat of undercoat - it's sandwiched between the undercoats.

 

[pmagowan]

Thanks Minn
I will search around for this stuff

 

[Kukri]

When you say "teak deck" is that teak over ply?

If so, I will tell you right now where most of your problems are...

 

[pmagowan]

Yes teak over ply! If I didn't like problems I wouldn't have got a wooden boat

 

[Kukri]

WHEN you re-deck her (not "if"!) go for glass cloth and epoxy over ply.

Cheaper, lighter, stronger and MUCH more durable!

You'll soon know why I said that!

Good luck!

The only way to check a keel bolt is to knock one down - not hard to do if you can get enough clearance under the boat for the bolt to drop out.

Chain plate area can be "interesting" with mahogany planking as its a favourite spot for a bit of damp to get in. Are they internal or external?

 

[pmagowan]

I know, the teak is a bad idea but I like it. I could have got a tuperware boat and then all would be happy days on the water but I like a challenge

The chain plates are internal but there has obviously been some moisture getting to them as there is a rust mark on the topsides. The keel bolts are going to be a bug*er to get off I predict, but there is one with reasonable access and I will give it a go.

What is the point of a boat if it doesn't keep you busy in winter as well as summer?

 

[Seanick]

The majority of HoneyBees are strip planked. Are you sure yours is carvel? Take a look inside and find an unpainted section of hull. If the planks are about 1 1/2" then its strip, and needs to be treated differently than carvel. Also most of the decks aon Honeybees are Iroko......

 

[pmagowan]

Its good sized carvel planking. I am pretty sure the deck is teak certainly looks and acts like it before and after sanding. The boat was built in Largs on thr Clyde in ?61.

 

[Seanick]

Re carvel:good.
I have worked on a few of these. (see website for some pics)
Chain plates. These should come out okay. Knock them down, not up. Making the new ones one plank longer can help the boat at this age.
Keel bolts. You sre correct to check the keel bolts, but the floor bolts are really more important-the vertical bolts that bolt the timber floors to the wooden keel-the ballast keel is bolted to the wooden keel which is attached to the boat by the floors. I would also recommend transferring the mast compression post from the keel to a bridge between the two adjacent floors.

Saying all that, if she does not leak when sailed in a breeze then don't worry about any of the above yet.

ps Bottom. Scrape of a 4' section, sand up and prime, before moving to the next section. When finished, apply at least four coats of primer eg Int Primocon.

Have fun!

ps post some pics-internal and external?

 

[pmagowan]

Thanks Seanick

I'm better at wood than technology (i hope) but will try with the pics when I get time. I have only had her since summer and when away for a week there is enough water in the bilges to get the pump running. It doesnt seem to go much above that even when the battery is out. It has also been VERY wet over here so quite a bit could be rain water. I decided that she needs stripped down to wood for a couple of reasons

a)I would like to see what is hidden under the paint
b)I want to get to know every inch of her
c)The old paint looks too neglected to try and touch up.

So far I have been pleased with what I have found.
She was not expensive as she needed a bit of tidying up and we have already had some lovely times in her. I will take your other points on board when I get my head round this one

Thanks

Paddy

 

[apindrans]

Restoring Corio Vertue

I bought Corio Vertue 5 years ago and am now in renovation mode. Luckily, I've been able to sail CV while I have been working on her, but I started out as a 'newbie' to wooden boats. I do enjoy working with wood so that certainly helped, and I already had most of the tools.

See my website if you want some idea of what you are letting yourself infor. Once you get going there is no going back - but most of it is very rewarding, and can be fun.

www.indrans.com/CV_WEB

 

[pmagowan]

Thats a great website with really interesting pictures apindrans. Corio Vertue has certainly tidied up well, must have been a lot of work. I notice you are working in 30 degrees, we have the opposite, continuous rain and cold. I hope I don't have quite as much tidying to do as you had but you never know until you start hoking out all the old wood.
You talk about recaulking the seams. Did you do this yourself or get someone in? Also did you hoke out all the old caulking or just reputty? I am looking at my seams and wondering if it would be possible to get anything out as they are so tight (may be all this rain). Perhaps when I get her in the shed and she dries a little it will become clear.
I am looking at painting systems. Currently epiphanes is my choice. They recoment 1 coat of werdol primer and then filler then thined topcoat then a few coats of topcoat. There is no mention of undercoats etc. Does anyone have any comments on this.
I would like to post pictures and have some on an iphone but have not yet got the technical where-with-all. Perhaps I will start a website like yours apindrans