Women and sailing

[[29051]]

I think one of the biggest issues is endemic sexism in the sailing world, which is still very much built around the idea of jolly good cheps (sic) in blazers and greys at the yacht club bar. It isn't that long since Yachting Monthly boat reviews would contain something like "For the women, the galley is well laid out and food storage is ample..." Luckily we don't see that any more ... but when was the last time you saw a woman in on of Dick Everitt's "Skipper's Notebook" drawings, rather than a lantern jawed chap in beard, sunglasses and baseball cap? Did Mike Peyton every draw a woman skipper, or indeed a woman who appeared to enjoy sailing? Why do all new boat adverts show Giles, in linen shorts and white shirt, steering while the woman gazes adoringly at him or reclines implausibly on the foredeck. Notice anything about that long row of contributor pictures under PBO's "Ask the Expert"?

In short, I don't any woman browsing YM or PBO would feel that she was particularly welcome. I imagine that it's even worse for BME people - has there ever been a non-white person featured in either magazine?

Last month's yachting monthly 'a question of seamanship' was a classic example. Tom wants to leave an hour early. Ann wants to make sandwiches first as they have kids on board and everyone gets seasick. The answer was Tom should accept the delay and be patient while Ann sorts the food out ! Never a hint of him being able to slice some bread and butter it, or sort out the kids' breakfast.

Since I took up sailing I have been amazed that most skippers, given even the smallest of boats, think they have reinvented the navy. I have been with a pair of boats crossing the channel where there was an appointed Commodore, as well as skippers, mates, pilots etc. 12 people in total. Then there are all the mugs, hats, socks etc labelled with crew positions to keep everyone in their place.

I find it very off-putting. Of course there has to be a skipper for legal reasons, but with a couple on a boat it's much more pleasant to work as a team.

 

[stranded]

Why don't women like sailing?
Or, how can we encourage more women to crew, skipper, and own sailing boats?
Is there any need to do this?

I suspect that the way that too many (mostly) male skippers treat their crew when they, the skippers, cock up may be a factor. In my experience women have a commendably lower tolerance of men behaving like arseholes than other men do.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Last month's yachting monthly 'a question of seamanship' was a classic example. Tom wants to leave an hour early. Ann wants to make sandwiches first as they have kids on board and everyone gets seasick. The answer was Tom should accept the delay and be patient while Ann sorts the food out ! Never a hint of him being able to slice some bread and butter it, or sort out the kids' breakfast.

An excellent example. Has there ever been a woman skipper with a male crew in QoS?

 

[Leighb]

I am obviously fortunate as my wife enjoys sailing, she is a capable helmsman and in fact whenever we do things such as picking up moorings and anchoring she steers and I do the work at the pointy end.

She is able to bring the boat into the marina but prefers me to do it. We share a lot of the domestic stuff, but she usually cooks supper and I cook breakfast.

There are many lady sailors in our club, and in some cases they are the owner and skipper. We have many lady dinghy sailors also, so the OP's perception may be related to where he is based?

 

[stranded]

And, judging by contributions in this thread, there is a seemingly pretty universal ignorance among otherwise good people here just how patronising many younger women find being referred to as 'ladies'!

 

[Serin]

An excellent example. Has there ever been a woman skipper with a male crew in QoS?

Certainly. I am such a skipper and sole owner of my boat. Most men seem to accept that OK these days and I wouldn't sail with them if it meant a lot of friction - overt or concealed. There is a great deal I could say on the subject, both as a pretty much lifelong independent woman sailor and as a teacher (formal and informal) of sailing to many women. But I don't really have time at the moment.

Long ago, the Island Cruising Club's beautiful 70 foot gaff schooner was sailed by a skipper and mate, both female, both nurses and both excellent sailors. That was very unusual in those days and they got a lot of lip from the blokes. On one occasion, the skipper was being bugged by a rather scruffy little bloke during the initial sail drill. A former ward sister, she drew herself up to her full height and addressed him this in her finest ward sister tones:

"Well, I must say, you are a fine figure of a man! Have you opened your bowels today?"

No more lip from that direction. That's they way to treat 'em! :encouragement:

 

[Blue Sunray]

I think one of the biggest issues is endemic sexism in the sailing world, which is still very much built around the idea of jolly good cheps (sic) in blazers and greys at the yacht club bar. It isn't that long since Yachting Monthly boat reviews would contain something like "For the women, the galley is well laid out and food storage is ample..." Luckily we don't see that any more ... but when was the last time you saw a woman in on of Dick Everitt's "Skipper's Notebook" drawings, rather than a lantern jawed chap in beard, sunglasses and baseball cap? Did Mike Peyton every draw a woman skipper, or indeed a woman who appeared to enjoy sailing? Why do all new boat adverts show Giles, in linen shorts and white shirt, steering while the woman gazes adoringly at him or reclines implausibly on the foredeck. Notice anything about that long row of contributor pictures under PBO's "Ask the Expert"?

In short, I don't any woman browsing YM or PBO would feel that she was particularly welcome. I imagine that it's even worse for BME people - has there ever been a non-white person featured in either magazine?

Whilst I'd agree with much of your post I take issue with the yacht club/blazer comment. My impression is that a good club/social side (blazers and ties are of course not integral to this) can be quite an attraction to the sport/pastime at least initially.

The aura of cheapskate old blokes who think bucket and chuck it sanitation is perfectly adequate and anyone who'd use a marina is a wuss combined with the patronising/misogynistic language used not least by many who post on here that is rather more discouraging. Both are of course caricatures but of it doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Jock89]

''In short, I don't think any woman browsing YM or PBO would feel that she was particularly welcome. I imagine that it's even worse for BME people - has there ever been a non-white person featured in either magazine?[/QUOTE]

I don't see it that way at all. Nothing sexist about it. Women & wives (being the weaker sex) are not generally known for their sense of adventure, & even when sufficiently successful & affluent enough to afford a yacht of their own, don't do it. It's one of the things that I dislike about most women, they're just too insecure to take a chance with anything that smacks of adventure, & sailing is hard work to them.
Without exception, everyone I know who has a sailing yacht, if he dropped dead tomorrow, his wife would have the yacht on the market within a bloody week.!

 

[Blue Sunray]

''In short, I don't think any woman browsing YM or PBO would feel that she was particularly welcome. I imagine that it's even worse for BME people - has there ever been a non-white person featured in either magazine?

I don't see it that way at all. Nothing sexist about it. Women & wives (being the weaker sex) are not generally known for their sense of adventure, & even when sufficiently successful & affluent enough to afford a yacht of their own, don't do it. It's one of the things that I dislike about most women, they're just too insecure to take a chance with anything that smacks of adventure, & sailing is hard work to them.
Without exception, everyone I know who has a sailing yacht, if he dropped dead tomorrow, his wife would have the yacht on the market within a bloody week.!

That's a poor attempt at a wind up isn't it?

 

[Serin]

''In short, I don't think any woman browsing YM or PBO would feel that she was particularly welcome. I imagine that it's even worse for BME people - has there ever been a non-white person featured in either magazine?

I don't see it that way at all. Nothing sexist about it. Women & wives (being the weaker sex) are not generally known for their sense of adventure, & even when sufficiently successful & affluent enough to afford a yacht of their own, don't do it. It's one of the things that I dislike about most women, they're just too insecure to take a chance with anything that smacks of adventure, & sailing is hard work to them.
Without exception, everyone I know who has a sailing yacht, if he dropped dead tomorrow, his wife would have the yacht on the market within a bloody week.!

Oh my!

 

[flaming]

Recently we did an event where, completely by chance, the crew was all male.

Worst weekend's sailing I've had in years. Although everyone on board was a regular sailor with us, it just didn't work. Lots of little niggles, people not concentrating etc.

Following weekend 2 of our regular girls were on board. Totally different atmosphere, and we sailed a lot better too. In fact the best crew I have ever been a part of was for the IRC nationals that we won. We had a crew of 9. 3 blokes, 6 girls. Wind barely dropped below 20 knots, and we completely bossed the day it blew 30 all day. Everyone totally focused on the sailing, and we barely put a foot wrong all regatta.

There are very, very few boats in our type of racing that are not mixed crew. It's certainly true that some jobs on board are rarely occupied by a girl, mainsheet and helm being the obvious ones. Though a lot of that is due to the small number of racing owners who are female. However, I would guess that almost all of our competitors have a girl in their trim team, and I think it's probably more common to have a girl flying the kite in our fleet than a bloke.
Certainly we will go to Cowes this year with 3 out of 4 of our trim team girls, plus our pit. We'll then go to Dartmouth with the same mix (though different women!) plus a female bow.

 

[annageek]

I am in my late twenties and have been into boating for some years, but I'm pretty new to sailing. I am the 'owner' of our little yacht. I am a bit of a control freak, and this may be the reason but I tend to take charge over all of the difficult/fun bits. Broadly speaking, all berthing / close quarters handling and sail handling / trimming is all my job - helming is my partner's duty. I know it frustrates him, as he wants to be more involved and not just be a glorified tiller pilot!

As an engineer, I'm also the technical authority of our 'team', so anything that needs repairing / sorting usually gets dealt with my me.

I'm a PBO subscriber too. I think it's quite 'inclusively' put together (at least in the last couple of years that I've been a reader), as it's really about the boats and boating than anything else. As a female reader, I don't feel at all alienated. Sure, there are a couple of dozen male only experts in the 'ask the experts' section, but this is just an accurate (albeit unfortunate) reflection how the ratio of men to women who work in these expert fields has been for the past few decades. The times they are a changin' though!

The one place where I often feel out of place, though, is the chandlery/marine supply outlets. Always have. I'll never forget the time when I popped in to buy some sealant, and had the shop assistant say 'husband sent you out for supplies, has he?'... as if I wouldn't possibly be capable of knowing what to do with a tube of sealant - he probably thought he should say something or I might try and ice a cake with it! Also, if my partner is beside me, if I ask a question, the response will too often be directed back at him - as if I am just some sort of proxy, and won't understand the response. Very frustrating!

Don't get me started on the sexism of new boat adverts though. I've been into that one at length on these fora before!

 

[annageek]

Oh my!

+1

 

[Deviation]

''In short, I don't think any woman browsing YM or PBO would feel that she was particularly welcome. I imagine that it's even worse for BME people - has there ever been a non-white person featured in either magazine?

I don't see it that way at all. Nothing sexist about it. Women & wives (being the weaker sex) are not generally known for their sense of adventure, & even when sufficiently successful & affluent enough to afford a yacht of their own, don't do it. It's one of the things that I dislike about most women, they're just too insecure to take a chance with anything that smacks of adventure, & sailing is hard work to them.
Without exception, everyone I know who has a sailing yacht, if he dropped dead tomorrow, his wife would have the yacht on the market within a bloody week.![/QUOTE]

Fairly certain I can say with all sincerity, what a load of bo11ocks! At 17 I skippered my first yacht, with an all male crew. I continued to do so for some years until I started my nurse training. When qualified I moved to Africa where I went on safari for 5 months, had my face licked by a hyena, our vehicle got stuck in quicksand for 2 days and we thought we would die, got stampeded by a herd of elephants, bungee jumped twice into the Zambezi, was resuscitated after having a white water rafting accident in the same Zambezi, returned, joined the navy, spent time doing arctic training and living in a snow hole in Norway, worked exclusively with the Royal Marines, lived in Gib, went to Iraq twice where we were bombed and I lived in a gas mask and full PPE for 6 months, went to Afghanistan 3 times, was in charge of the UK's largest hospital ship RFA Argos, got medically discharged aged 40 following a spinal injury I received whilst on active deployment, and am currently living in Colombia. And finally I introduced my husband to sailing. Not the other way around. So I really hope your comment was tongue in cheek because I may have failed to mention in my boastathon but I was also a navy marksman for 10 years and have the badges in my old uniform to prove it. And at 44 I reckon I'm only half way through.

 

[Jock89]

Annageek: Very pleased to read this from a female sailor & Engineer. You are 1 in a 1000 though & I wish more women would have the 'gutsiness' to do things like you do.

 

[Jock89]

Deviation: And you are 1 in 10,000.! I stand by my comments though as I'm talking about the vast majority of women or wives, not the odd 1 in several thousand of the population who are adventurous & ambitious & go out & actually DO something. You're a credit to the fairer sex for what you've done, & my respect to you.! I've had very similiar adventures myself.

 

[annageek]

Fairly certain I can say with all sincerity, what a load of bo11ocks! At 17 I skippered my first yacht, with an all male crew. I continued to do so for some years until I started my nurse training. When qualified I moved to Africa where I went on safari for 5 months, had my face licked by a hyena, our vehicle got stuck in quicksand for 2 days and we thought we would die, got stampeded by a herd of elephants, bungee jumped twice into the Zambezi, was resuscitated after having a white water rafting accident in the same Zambezi, returned, joined the navy, spent time doing arctic training and living in a snow hole in Norway, worked exclusively with the Royal Marines, lived in Gib, went to Iraq twice where we were bombed and I lived in a gas mask and full PPE for 6 months, went to Afghanistan 3 times, was in charge of the UK's largest hospital ship RFA Argos, got medically discharged aged 40 following a spinal injury I received whilst on active deployment, and am currently living in Colombia. And finally I introduced my husband to sailing. Not the other way around. So I really hope your comment was tongue in cheek because I may have failed to mention in my boastathon but I was also a navy marksman for 10 years and have the badges in my old uniform to prove it. And at 44 I reckon I'm only half way through.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?458954-Women-and-sailing/page4#8bjuBMRj0SCv5vLj.99

... and gutsiest of all, she entrusted her beloved old boat to a couple of inexperienced bananas! I should know - I was one of them!

Annageek: Very pleased to read this from a female sailor & Engineer. You are 1 in a 1000 though & I wish more women would have the 'gutsiness' to do things like you do.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?458954-Women-and-sailing/page4#8bjuBMRj0SCv5vLj.99

It really doesn't take guts to become an engineer or sailor - Just an incurable curiosity about how things work and a love for water but hatred of topping up fuel tanks on a mobo!

 

[Deviation]

... and gutsiest of all, she entrusted her beloved old boat to a couple of inexperienced bananas! I should know - I was one of them!

Hey Anna!! How is she behaving?!!

It really doesn't take guts to become an engineer or sailor - Just an incurable curiosity about how things work and a love for water but hatred of topping up fuel tanks on a mobo!

 

[annageek]

Hey Anna!! How is she behaving?!!

Superbly! We're do happy with her! Annoyingly I've been quite ill since not long after we picked her up (but recovering), but before that we managed to get a few really good days sailing in. She's a joy to sail - so easy than what I am used to, and sublimely comfortable to boot! Couldn't be happier!

 

[Deviation]

From one female sailor to another, chuffed to bits for you. But more I importantly, how's the galley?!