Wiring Diagram help

[skipmac]

Skip, I have a 1-2-both switch at the moment. I wanted to do away with this as 1, it could have come from the QE2 it's so hugh and 2, with the ACR I shouldn't have to worry about switching (or not) batteries to charge them, let alone leaving them combined and draining them. I imagine the "cube" fuses should protect me from combining to a shorted battery.

If the size of the battery switch is a concern Blue Sea makes a smaller one, less than 3" square. https://www.bluesea.com/products/6007200/m-Series_Mini_Selector_Battery_Switch_-_Black

If by cube fuses you mean these https://www.bluesea.com/products/5191/MRBF_Terminal_Fuse_Block_-_30_to_300A
they are great products. I have them on all my battery banks. If you have one on both start and house battery banks that will protect you from the risk of dumping full battery power from one bank into a shorted battery in the other, however that will not prevent a discharged (but not shorted) battery from draining a good battery if you combine them to start the engine. Basically the charged battery will be sending as much or more power to the dead battery as it would to the starter.

So what are the thoughts on the ACR/Solar Controller. Both on starter battery (I think I would like to keep the starter battery topped up) or altenator on starter and solar on house as the ACR will flip between the two? What happens if I'm running the engine on a sunny day, will the ACR cope sensing a charge from both sides at the same time? I assume it'll just link the batteries and they will absorb whatever charge they need.

Tom

Using the ACR or a similar device is, in my humble opinion, the simplest, most foolproof way to keep all batteries charged while keeping the start battery isolated and protected from accidental discharge for house loads so you always have a charged start battery. However, the way to do it.

ALL charging sources go to one place, the house batteries. Here's why.

- Simplifies charge control
- Simplifies wiring
- Whenever there is charging voltage to the house battery the start battery will automatically be charged as well so it will always be topped off.
- The start battery, unless you have a really, really bad engine problem and crank the engine repeatedly for a long time, is only discharged a tiny amount in charging, something on the order of 5 amp hours in a typical small boat. On the other hand, using house batteries for lights, fridge, anchor windlass, anchor lights, stereo or what have you could use 50 or 100 amp hours. So which battery needs to get the most charge on a regular basis?

 

[PaulRainbow]

1, Can I run all the cabin lights through one switched breaker (as long as it's in spec)?
2, Same with the Nav lights, as long as I can switch between them are they ok with one breaker?
3, 12v power sockets ok with breaker or should each be fused?
4, ACR and solar controller, link them both to the engine battery and the ACR charge the "house" when it decided, or solar controller on "house" and "alternator" on the engine as it's dual sensing?
5, I assume it's best practice for the engine + be switched through the battery switch to the starter solenoid or do people leave it live and just the solenoid wire/engine panel + through the switch? (as with a motorcycle)
6 Anything else you think I've missed (fuse/switch etc).

Some of the following has already been covered, but here's what i think.

1) Split between two breakers/switches.

2) Yes, providing failure of say, the tricolour, doesn't prevent using the bi colour/stern light.

3) One switch would be OK, if rated high enough, but separate fuses might be better.

4) Solar panels connected to the domestic bank, as this will be their primary use. Alternator to the engine battery, this will quickly charge and then the VCR will shift the output to the domestic bank, but if there is a problem with the VCR or the domestic bank they can be isolated and the engine battery will continue to be charged and you can run the electronics from there, see my comment below regarding the isolator switches.

5) The main starter cable and all associated wiring should be isolated.

6) Battery cable fuses.

Some of the electronics have their own switches and do not need further switches at the panel, eg: FM radio, VHF etc

Use suitably rated cable for the solar charging and for the VSR, this is often overlooked and underrated wiring used. Wire all charging circuits directly to the batteries, with suitable fuses fitted.

Don't use the BlueSea isolator switch, fit three separate switches. One for the engine bank, one for the domestic bank and one for emergency use, connected between the output terminals of the two isolators. This will allow you to have the domestic bank on without the engine circuits being live. It will also allow you to parallel both banks in the event of a flat battery, you could start the engine from the domestic bank or run the domestics from the engine battery. It also allows you to isolate the flat battery by switching it's isolator off. If the engine battery catastrophically failed, for instance, you could turn it off and engage the emergency switch, running everything from the domestic bank until you get a new battery.

I haven't studied the wiring diagram in detail, but i see Vic and one or two others have, so you'll be covered there.

 

[BabaYaga]

ALL charging sources go to one place, the house batteries. Here's why.

- Simplifies charge control
- Simplifies wiring
- Whenever there is charging voltage to the house battery the start battery will automatically be charged as well so it will always be topped off.
- The start battery, unless you have a really, really bad engine problem and crank the engine repeatedly for a long time, is only discharged a tiny amount in charging, something on the order of 5 amp hours in a typical small boat. On the other hand, using house batteries for lights, fridge, anchor windlass, anchor lights, stereo or what have you could use 50 or 100 amp hours. So which battery needs to get the most charge on a regular basis?

This is good advice in my view, although seemingly controversial to many in the UK.
However, I will dare to go one step further and suggest that an ACR/VSR is not necessarily the best solution for everyone (even if many swear by them).
In your diagram you have wired the ACR in a kind of way that suggests that it is intended to be an ordinary non-voltage sensing relay. But as already pointed out, the positive wire for the coil is connected to the wrong point, so will not work as such. If instead you connected this wire to the charging light circuit by the alternator (the one in the middle), it would close such a 'dumb' relay when the engine is running and alternator charging and open it again on engine shut down, separating the batteries.
In my opinion this is an even better system than the ACR/VSR, in that it is both automatic and predictable.
I made a diagram for such a setup a while ago (the architecture stolen from another diagram posted by pvb, thank you very much):

 

[PaulRainbow]

This is good advice in my view, although seemingly controversial to many in the UK.
However, I will dare to go one step further and suggest that an ACR/VSR is not necessarily the best solution for everyone (even if many swear by them).
In your diagram you have wired the ACR in a kind of way that suggests that it is intended to be an ordinary non-voltage sensing relay. But as already pointed out, the positive wire for the coil is connected to the wrong point, so will not work as such. If instead you connected this wire to the charging light circuit by the alternator (the one in the middle), it would close such a 'dumb' relay when the engine is running and alternator charging and open it again on engine shut down, separating the batteries.
In my opinion this is an even better system than the ACR/VSR, in that it is both automatic and predictable.
I made a diagram for such a setup a while ago (the architecture stolen from another diagram posted by pvb, thank you very much):

Sorry, but i disagree. You might rethink the above if you consider a dual sensing VSR, which is what i believe the OP has. These have a heavy gauge positive wire from each bank and a single, lighter gauge, wire to the common negative. If either bank is over a given voltage the relay will close. So it will always be closed when the engine is running, because it will sense the alternator voltage and it will also be closed when the solar panels are charging at a high enough voltage and when the mains charger is on. (if the alternator is wired to the engine battery and the solar controller is wired to the domestics. Another benefit of this is that a single output charger could be connected to the domestic bank.

I agree with the rest of your diagram, but your relay only allows for charging the domestic bank when the engine is running. There is no facility to charge both banks from the solar controller, which the OP has.

 

[pvb]

In your diagram you have wired the ACR in a kind of way that suggests that it is intended to be an ordinary non-voltage sensing relay. But as already pointed out, the positive wire for the coil is connected to the wrong point, so will not work as such. If instead you connected this wire to the charging light circuit by the alternator (the one in the middle), it would close such a 'dumb' relay when the engine is running and alternator charging and open it again on engine shut down, separating the batteries.
In my opinion this is an even better system than the ACR/VSR, in that it is both automatic and predictable.
I made a diagram for such a setup a while ago (the architecture stolen from another diagram posted by pvb, thank you very much):

No, you're wrong about that, it is a voltage sensing Blue Sea ACR, as I suggested in post 7, and as confirmed by the OP in post 16. It's wired correctly in his diagram, although the symbol shown for the ACR is incorrect.

And thanks for the credit on the diagram!

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Yes the symbol is wrong I just needed a symbol to show the connections of the ACR for the diagram software to connect the wires to, otherwise it won't let the circuit complete.

Ignore the true meaning for the symbol and just think if ACR = +Bat1, +Bat2, Earth and Start Isolation

My main objective is to K.I.S.S and not have to worry about different/multiple battery switches and loads of wires going from circuit breakers to fuses to switches when they're not needed. One main switch, CB for each core job and fuses for electronics/power outlets. If a bulb pops and trips the breaker I'm assuming the majority of the time the CB can be reset and the rest of the lights will work as it would in a house.

 

[prv]

I thought there were so many minor circuits on the one master cabin light switch and fuse they could be split into two.

I think this used to be common because incandescent lights pulled so much power that the total would mean a big fuse - and then you'd need oversized wiring to keep the ratings compatible. Splitting into two halves meant that each fuse could be below the current rating of say 1mm² wiring which is easier to run and also cheaper. But this issue doesn't arise with modern lights, and the additional complication and panel space doesn't seem worth it to me. I'd rather just have a single "Cabin Lighting" switch that I can turn on in the evening and off in the morning, or off when we head out to the pub and on when we get back. I put a very dim LED just below it so it's easy to find in the latter case.

All my panel connections are made at a terminal strip, which comes with jumper straps allowing you to common several sections together, so the physical connection of lots of wires is no problem.

all my nav lights are on one fuse ....... I have often though that could be a mistake in the event of a fault occurring. If each circuit is independently fuse a fault would only put the one circuit out of action.

Agreed - not to mention the fact that the wiring travels long distances through a hostile environment with moving parts surrounded by conductive metal, so if anywhere is going to get damaged and short out, this is it. I have a small sub-fusebox for my nav lights, with a separate fuse for each so that I should only lose one at a time. My nav lights are controlled using a rotary switch that automatically selects the correct combinations - but if for some reason I should ever want to show something else, the spade terminals of the fusebox also provide a kind of patch-panel allowing manual connections.

I still think there is a problem with the choice of dual circuit isolator.

I have a similar switch. I understand the arguments for separate isolators, but I do like the neatness and simplicity of a single on/off switch for the whole boat, especially since it's mounted somewhere visible (neatly, through a hole in a panel). And really, this isn't a warship that needs to be able to instantly reconfigure the supply to work around battle damage - 99.9% of the time I either want both circuits on or both circuits off. If for some reason I did only want one of them, the house and engine battery terminals are easily accessible under a seat cushion to be disconnected.

Pete

 

[PaulRainbow]

I have a similar switch. I understand the arguments for separate isolators, but I do like the neatness and simplicity of a single on/off switch for the whole boat, especially since it's mounted somewhere visible (neatly, through a hole in a panel).

Pete

These are mine Pete, still neat (i think)

 

[Yellow Ballad]

I've just noticed Blue Sea do a split fuse box

https://www.bluesea.com/products/5032/ST_Blade_Split_Bus_Fuse_Block

So I could run six for Cabin Power and the other six for the Nav Lights off two different breakers, then I'm not really adding any more components but protecting the other light circuits.

Any the cabin lights would more then likely be LED so less current.

 

[BabaYaga]

No, you're wrong about that, it is a voltage sensing Blue Sea ACR, as I suggested in post 7, and as confirmed by the OP in post 16. It's wired correctly in his diagram, although the symbol shown for the ACR is incorrect.

Agreed, I didn't read carefully enough.

Sorry, but i disagree. You might rethink the above if you consider a dual sensing VSR, which is what i believe the OP has.

Just to make clear, the diagram I posted is only suitable with an ordinary, heavy duty relay used as an alternative to a VSR. If the OP already has a VSR in place, my suggestion is more in principal.

Another benefit of this is that a single output charger could be connected to the domestic bank.

I agree with the rest of your diagram, but your relay only allows for charging the domestic bank when the engine is running. There is no facility to charge both banks from the solar controller, which the OP has.

As skipmac pointed out in post #21, the starter uses a rather small amount of energy and engine running normally put this back quickly. Having a VSR paralleling the banks for extended periods is not necessarily a benefit for the (already fully charged) starter battery, especially if the difference in Ah capacity between the banks is large.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Just to make clear, the diagram I posted is only suitable with an ordinary, heavy duty relay used as an alternative to a VSR. If the OP already has a VSR in place, my suggestion is more in principal.

Yes, i understand.

As skipmac pointed out in post #21, the starter uses a rather small amount of energy and engine running normally put this back quickly. Having a VSR paralleling the banks for extended periods is not necessarily a benefit for the (already fully charged) starter battery, especially if the difference in Ah capacity between the banks is large.

But the OP has a dual sensing VSR, so it will do this anyway. Simply, the VSR will close whenever either bank is receiving the required voltage. If the engine battery is fully charged, it simply won't accept any more and the charging current will goto the batteries that need it (domestic bank). The exact same apploes to your method in the wiring diagram, if your engine is running the relay is closed and all batteries are paralleled and being charged.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Updated wiring diagram.
I've gone for a 24hr bilge pump option, moved the solar onto the house battery, done away with the 2nd fuse box and had CBs in the switch panel for the nav lights. Deck power is waterproof 2 pin socket for a search light and a combined USB/cig socket for the nav table (it's what I have fnow and I don't really need to be wiring in extra sockets), fridge on it's own breaker, and I'm happy to have the cabin lights on one to save space, oh and master fuses on the batteries.

I don't mind not being able to isolate the batteries from eachother via the switch, it's not hard to take the cables off the battery if needs be and if I want to leave the fridge on I can trip the other breakers if I want to leave it running.

Sounds and looks ok? As always constructive criticism welcome.

 

[Jokani]

Hi Tom, a cheeky request, can I have a copy of the Digi-Key file so that I can use it as the starting point for my own wiring diagram?

 

[pvb]

Sounds and looks ok? As always constructive criticism welcome.

Looking good! I'd still prefer the cabin lights to be on 2 breaker circuits, say port and starboard, as that keeps some lights on if a fault trips one breaker. Your nav lights now have two levels of breaker protection, and I'd suggest you could wire the separate nav light panel directly to power, thus freeing up a main breaker for a second cabin light circuit. Is there any reason why you chose push-button breakers for the nav lights, rather than rocker switch breakers like the others?

One last comment: if you wired the ACR after the main battery fuses, you could do away with the 2 fuses in the ACR wires.

 

[VicS]

Looking good! I'd still prefer the cabin lights to be on 2 breaker circuits, say port and starboard, as that keeps some lights on if a fault trips one breaker. Your nav lights now have two levels of breaker protection, and I'd suggest you could wire the separate nav light panel directly to power, thus freeing up a main breaker for a second cabin light circuit. Is there any reason why you chose push-button breakers for the nav lights, rather than rocker switch breakers like the others?

One last comment: if you wired the ACR after the main battery fuses, you could do away with the 2 fuses in the ACR wires.

+1 to the above.

also with the currently proposed circuit for the cabin lights the single circuit breaker must be rated for the total cabin light load but this could men that the protection for the individual units could be inadequate.

The wiring for the alternator warning light is surely incorrect ?? I thought this had been mentioned earlier .

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Hi Tom, a cheeky request, can I have a copy of the Digi-Key file so that I can use it as the starting point for my own wiring diagram?

Hi Gary, I can't see a way of downloading the file (apart from saving a pic). If you know how to let me know and I'll send it over to you.

Is there any reason why you chose push-button breakers for the nav lights, rather than rocker switch breakers like the others?

One last comment: if you wired the ACR after the main battery fuses, you could do away with the 2 fuses in the ACR wires.

Noted on the cabin lights, it's an option that's niggling at the back of my mind. The lighting in rigged on one fuse at the moment so I didn't see the issue on having them all on one curcuit (apart from it all going dark if it trips, but there's always a torch to hand if there's not on on my head at night). Plus I'm looking to upgrade the lighting to LED at the same time.

The flush rocker CBs are really expensive, the push button ones are a lot cheaper, but I like I can trip the rocker ones if I wanted to. The flush ones are also recessed in the panel so aesthetically they wouldn't sit nicely above the power plugs (not that it really matters)

Good shout on the ACR fuses, they were showned in the instructions but I'm guessing it's incase people haven't got master fuses on the batteries. I thought I would leave them in incase they had to be rated not to blow the ACR (if the fuse should be rated lower the master ones). But if they can be taken out even better.

The wiring for the alternator warning light is surely incorrect ?? I thought this had been mentioned earlier .

I've only put the engine panel bits on as I had to list the ACR into the switch and got carried away (the loom was new with the engine when it was fitted a few years back). I've just shown it as I understood it off the wiring diagram for the engine so it may be shown wrong (but I don't really need to change that bit). I'll see if I can get a pic of the engine diagram.

 

[prv]

also with the currently proposed circuit for the cabin lights the single circuit breaker must be rated for the total cabin light load but this could men that the protection for the individual units could be inadequate.

Only if you persist in heating up Edwardian coils of white-hot wire and sitting in the glow they give off as a by-product

However, I assume someone who's rewiring their whole boat will be fitting sensible modern lights.

Pete

 

[oldharry]

From past experience, I like to have cabin lights on two circuits, with a lamp from each circuit near the fuseboard..... This also gets round the issue of having a fairly high fuse rating feeding low cosumption units as suggested by Vic S above

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

Hi Gary, I can't see a way of downloading the file (apart from saving a pic). If you know how to let me know and I'll send it over to you.

You can make the project public, I'll cover the risks in a bit. Make it public and share the URL that you are given.
Risks:
Someone, a neerdowell messes it up:
First line, make a copy (save as) and only make the copy public
Second: only publish the URL to known people.
Third: make it private again as soon as the recipient had had a butchers.

For the recipient:
try just opening the shared project and using save as to keep you own copy.

All untested, but a good place to start, Ithink.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Thanks, I've done the above. If anyone else wants a copy let me know.

As I've got a couple of spare fuses on the "Electronics" fuse board I'll stick the nav table light onto that, then I have a backup where the switchboard is. But never have I blew a fuse by popping a bulb or LED, but having something there for wire chafe/shorting I can understand.