snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Ah, I looked at the second photo and thought that was illustrating the effect of not rotating a (short chord) wing with the sail.
Windward ability
- Thread starter deep denial
- Start date
Ah, I looked at the second photo and thought that was illustrating the effect of not rotating a (short chord) wing with the sail.
Little Rascal
Well-Known Member
That's pretty bad too!
You get seperation on the 'downwind' side, which is worse than the upwind seperation...
I think rotation is pretty crucial in order to realise the benefits in drag terms.
Seanick
Well-Known Member
Back to the OP question....
A few years ago I entered a Gaffer race in a SCOD. The SCOD had been restored for a customer, had new sails, and as well as beating all the other SCODS hands down at Cowes, had done well in Class 9, finishing in the top quarter of a fleet of thirty aginst hot Folkboats and Sonatas.
Anyway, we started the race off Yarmouth, and we could not point any higher than most of the gaffers. These days most gaffers have well cut Dacron sails and tight forestays. They are no longer covered in baggy wrinkle with baggy canvas and stretchy hemp sheets!
They have evolved!
When we rounded the windward mark, all the gaffers, even those smaller than our SCOD, just eased sheets and walked away. By the time we had (OK a bit slowly) hoisted our spinnaker we were at the back of the fleet.
Quite a few of those gaffers we converted to bermudian in the 30's, and later restored to gaff. In all cases those hull shapes were sluggish and underpowered as bermudians, and only got back 'in the groove' as gaffers and became sailing machines again.
A few years ago I entered a Gaffer race in a SCOD. The SCOD had been restored for a customer, had new sails, and as well as beating all the other SCODS hands down at Cowes, had done well in Class 9, finishing in the top quarter of a fleet of thirty aginst hot Folkboats and Sonatas.
Anyway, we started the race off Yarmouth, and we could not point any higher than most of the gaffers. These days most gaffers have well cut Dacron sails and tight forestays. They are no longer covered in baggy wrinkle with baggy canvas and stretchy hemp sheets!
They have evolved!
When we rounded the windward mark, all the gaffers, even those smaller than our SCOD, just eased sheets and walked away. By the time we had (OK a bit slowly) hoisted our spinnaker we were at the back of the fleet.
Quite a few of those gaffers we converted to bermudian in the 30's, and later restored to gaff. In all cases those hull shapes were sluggish and underpowered as bermudians, and only got back 'in the groove' as gaffers and became sailing machines again.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Too right. You should see the Falmouth oyster boats racing. Their sails make most AWBs look like granny's wash day!
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
I wasn't really referring to a rotating rig set up like you have. Simply a rotating wing mast with a conventional boom and headsail set up.
Not all wing masts are free standing. With modern materials, such as PBO and carbon rigging I doubt very much whether a wing mast, free standing or not can match the weight of a conventional rig.
For complexity, certainly you can do away with a fair bit of kit, but you add the mast step, which must hold up the mast, enable it to rotate and have a means of controlling it all. Hardly sounds simple and maintenance free.
I'm not saying that having a rig such as yours doesn't afford some considerable advantages. However there must be some considerable drawbacks, otherwise you'd see it more often, especially at the performance end of sailing. Obviously cost is another issue, but that shouldn't deter most if the performance gains were that great.
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snowleopard
Well-Known Member
A key point about wing masts for offshore use is that if you can't rotate them 360° there is no way to take the drive off in extreme conditions. That pretty much means they have to be unstayed. Tony Bullimore in Exide Challenger (the one he overturned) had a pair of stayed wing masts and he said it was a nightmare in the southern ocean.
Surprisingly the support and pivot is much less of a big deal than you'd think. The stresses on the hull are no more than with a stayed rig. OTOH the thought of a mast standing up without stays puts a lot of people off. I recall when Team Philips lost her bows someone on here saying 'Any fool could see a long unsupported structure like that could never work' (he probably insisted on a biplane when he flew).
As for cost, I asked for a price on a stayed carbon mast when I was building my boat. The quote was North of £40K.
The cost of modifying an existing design also adds to the cost. If it were offered as an option on new boats it might be more popular but the only case I have heard of was the Hirondelle cat which was offered with an Aero rig option.
Surprisingly the support and pivot is much less of a big deal than you'd think. The stresses on the hull are no more than with a stayed rig. OTOH the thought of a mast standing up without stays puts a lot of people off. I recall when Team Philips lost her bows someone on here saying 'Any fool could see a long unsupported structure like that could never work' (he probably insisted on a biplane when he flew).
As for cost, I asked for a price on a stayed carbon mast when I was building my boat. The quote was North of £40K.
The cost of modifying an existing design also adds to the cost. If it were offered as an option on new boats it might be more popular but the only case I have heard of was the Hirondelle cat which was offered with an Aero rig option.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>Can't agree with your " a ketch will always be beaten by a same size sloop going upwind or directly downwind." My ketch goes faster than sloops once the wind pipes up - they roll their foresails and main inefficiently. I just remove a sail thus keeping a much more efficient unreefed sailplan.
Sailing upwind we can hold full main and genoa until the wind reaches 25 knots apparent. By then most sloops have reefed and yes, thinking about it. we do go faster than they do.
>As for downwind - not so sure either with goosewinging opportunities.
Downwind we use a twin headsail twistle rig and full mizzen. Boats the same size will pass if using a spinaker but not with a poled out headsail.
Sailing upwind we can hold full main and genoa until the wind reaches 25 knots apparent. By then most sloops have reefed and yes, thinking about it. we do go faster than they do.
>As for downwind - not so sure either with goosewinging opportunities.
Downwind we use a twin headsail twistle rig and full mizzen. Boats the same size will pass if using a spinaker but not with a poled out headsail.