Windvane - PBO editorial disclaimer?

rob2

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The new copy of PBO landed on the doormat and as I work nights I knew that not much would get done today, then. I was fascinated, as I always am, by the article about a cruise to the Faeroes using a Hebridean windvane. I spent quite some time with a magnifying glass, figuring out how the device worked but I found the text not only unhelpful in this respect but downright misleading. The author claims that the horizontal vane and associated power ratio is a unique feature of the Hebridean design. Well that is obviously b###s and probably means that the author, despite having built the unit doesn't fully understand how it works. Checking with the guarded remarks on the designer's website it all becomes clear - and quite ingenious it is too.

In many ways there is nothing unusual about the basic design and linkage arrangement until you look into the angles that both the turret mount and servo blade form with the vertical. If these were in fact vertical, the assembly would demonstrate why feedback is required to avoid simply snaking along a course with even deviations either side of that desired. The setting of the air vane pivot on an angled lever means that as the whole assembly rotates with the pendulum movement, the angle of the vane's pivot axis aligns with the wind direction as the pendulum reaches its maximum design travel, the servo blade's rudder therefore straightening out at maximum swing. All very ingenious and delightfully simple, but in the conventional sense the linkage is reversed to achieve this relationship, so the tiller lines have to cross to achieve the correct sense of output (tiller input).

I wonder whether PBO's editorial staff did any work on the text - It isn't unusual for a piece of text to fail to communicate the message, so an editor may often tweak the language and maybe the author failed to realise the new meaning it gave? I can well understand that the designer, having designed and prototyped the Hebridean, which is offered as a kit of metal parts (just add the wood), and offering it at a very reasonable price, he would not wish to give the plans away too. I hope my comments don't offend, but the claim made is plain wrong - most windvanes nowadays are horizontal axis servo pendulums and share the power ratios of the type. It's the feedback mechanism that differs in this design.

Rob.
 
The new copy of PBO landed on the doormat and as I work nights I knew that not much would get done today, then. I was fascinated, as I always am, by the article about a cruise to the Faeroes using a Hebridean windvane. I spent quite some time with a magnifying glass, figuring out how the device worked but I found the text not only unhelpful in this respect but downright misleading. The author claims that the horizontal vane and associated power ratio is a unique feature of the Hebridean design. Well that is obviously b###s and probably means that the author, despite having built the unit doesn't fully understand how it works. Checking with the guarded remarks on the designer's website it all becomes clear - and quite ingenious it is too.

In many ways there is nothing unusual about the basic design and linkage arrangement until you look into the angles that both the turret mount and servo blade form with the vertical. If these were in fact vertical, the assembly would demonstrate why feedback is required to avoid simply snaking along a course with even deviations either side of that desired. The setting of the air vane pivot on an angled lever means that as the whole assembly rotates with the pendulum movement, the angle of the vane's pivot axis aligns with the wind direction as the pendulum reaches its maximum design travel, the servo blade's rudder therefore straightening out at maximum swing. All very ingenious and delightfully simple, but in the conventional sense the linkage is reversed to achieve this relationship, so the tiller lines have to cross to achieve the correct sense of output (tiller input).

I wonder whether PBO's editorial staff did any work on the text - It isn't unusual for a piece of text to fail to communicate the message, so an editor may often tweak the language and maybe the author failed to realise the new meaning it gave? I can well understand that the designer, having designed and prototyped the Hebridean, which is offered as a kit of metal parts (just add the wood), and offering it at a very reasonable price, he would not wish to give the plans away too. I hope my comments don't offend, but the claim made is plain wrong - most windvanes nowadays are horizontal axis servo pendulums and share the power ratios of the type. It's the feedback mechanism that differs in this design.

Rob.
Good post Rob. Watching with interest, Jerry.
 
I haven't got this month's PBO yet, but I have met the designer of the Hebridean wind vane, as well as the owners of the prototypes which went to Faeroe. It does seem an extremely clever design. I had a few questions and dare I say suspicion that having the air vane sweeping on a rotating arm in unison with the servo blade couldn't possibly work. However after talking it through with the designer I am now quite convinced. In fact if I didn't already own a windvane, I would probably be putting in an order for one...

By the way, the designer has made the plans available for £150 including a licence to build one vane.

Would be a shame if the PBO article is full of errors.
 
I barely skimmed the article, but I did spot the bit about the horizontal axis being unique, which as you say is obviously *******s. I assumed the guy who built it (not designed it) didn't know much about windvanes.

Pete
 
Hello. I am the author of the article. The claim about the horizontal axis is not mine but the designer's. And he stands by the claim:

"They say your claim that the horizontal axis is unique and potentially more powerful is bonkers. They are wrong, but your article doesn't explain why - too much space required! When they say that most servo pendulums operate on a horizontal axis they are also wrong. They deflect on one inclined at 20 degrees to the horizontal. If they weren't they would be out of control, and dangerous to the occupants of the boat, as discovered in the initial trials of wind vanes of this nature in the 1060's. It was Marcel Gianoli who solved the problem for them by inclining the vane axis 20 degrees. But this was done at the expensive of sensitivity (a compromise). With the Hebridean you do not sacrifice sensitivity for control because control comes in after, when the vane axis rotates with the swing of the pendulum. That is what is unique." (John Fleming).
 
Rob and Pete suggest editorial interference or garbled authoring in my account of using the Hebridean servo pendulum wind vane on a trip to the Faroes. I suggest in it that the vane axis is horizontal and therefor unique.

Actually each word was carefully chosen. It is perhaps not surprising you assume such a claim to be rubbish. After all, there are numerous vanes available that at first glance appear to work on horizontal axes, to which I assume you both refer. In fact manufacturers abandoned the fully horizontal axis decades ago, tilting it by 20 degrees early on in the wind vane era to cure a fishtailing or snaking boat track issue. To suggest the problem has been solved after all this time with a very simple design is therefor a radical claim. Despite what you say about most servo pendulum wind vanes working on a horizontal axis, the Hebridean is the only one, to my knowledge, to use it successfully.

There are as you point out many vanes that work on an axis that approaches horizontal, often to within 20 degrees. I know enough about wind vanes, despite your assumptions to the contrary, to know that 20 degrees is a big number amongst the many variables that go into the cauldron of any wind vane recipe. I would therefor like to make it clear that by the term 'horizontal' I mean something set at an angle exactly parallel to the horizon. Not horizontal-ish. Not nearly horizontal, or looks about horizontal, or 20 degrees from horizontal. If John Fleming's claim is unfounded, you will I am sure list here the names of the models that work on a truly horizontal axis, in which case I shall offer my apologies, remove myself from the discussion and thoroughly scold the designer!

But how amazing if John Fleming's product does indeed represent a breakthrough. Has a retired physics teacher solved a challenge abandoned long ago by the established industry as a hopeless quest – and with a design that is this simple? It is no wonder you are sceptical. I was too. But I assure you there is no mistake in the language used in my article.

We are here discussing one of the many selling points of the Hebridean servo pendulum wind vane. If, as the designer claims, his vane is the only one that pivots on a truly horizontal axis, what difference would that make? Well, to detune a vane so that it does not cause the boat to fishtail unacceptably through the water, it has been common practice since the early days to tilt the horizontal vane axis by 20 degrees. Maybe some got it down to 15 degrees. It was a eureka moment for wind vane design, solving at a stroke that vexing challenge. But it was also a compromise to make the unit work — a compromise by which a proportion of both sensitivity and power were lost. Just how much of each is sacrificed I cannot say. I am sure you must know. What I can say is that whatever proportion of sensitivity and power is lost in other designs is retained in the Hebridean. This justifies the designer's assertion (grossly understated in my view) that it is likely to be the most sensitive and powerful vane available. The implications are important: 1. The Hebridean will have more sensitivity in light airs (or any wind) than other similar vanes. 2. The Hebridean will have more power in high winds (or any wind) than other similar vanes.

Are you starting to see the advantages? The industry currently accepts a standard recipe that sacrifices sensitivity and power. Maybe that is ok and provides an adequate product. On the other hand, how often do I hear groans about the limits of vanes in certain conditions? Or about gear that is too heavy. How much difference then would an extra measure of sensitivity and power across the board make? The answer is lighter gear with more power that works better in all conditions, i.e. the Hebridean. I'd like to see measured comparisons made by experts.

Please check what I am saying. If you find in favour of the Hebridean, do spread the word: John Fleming is a living wind vane genius and his Hebridean represents one of the biggest breakthroughs in wind vane design for half a century. And you can have the kit for £300. Can this be true? Is this an April fool? I assure you this is August. I therefor nominate John Fleming for the highest award for innovative services to yachtsmen.
 
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I used a haslar pendulum on my old boat for some years.
Whilst I wish this designer builder every success £300 seems a lot of money compared to a tiller pilot for a basic kit?
 
In the 1970,s I swapped some unused davits for a servo pendulum wind vane which was described as a 'Fleming windvane'. Slightly agriculture in appearance it performed brilliantly on a single handed transatlantic and was superb downwind. Is this from the same Mr Fleming?
 
I used a haslar pendulum on my old boat for some years.
Whilst I wish this designer builder every success £300 seems a lot of money compared to a tiller pilot for a basic kit?

It's a completely different bit of kit, aimed at a different market.
And if you don't want one, don't buy one...
 
It's a completely different bit of kit, aimed at a different market.
And if you don't want one, don't buy one...

I have to say I was bemused by ffils comment as well.

My limited knowledge of this subject suggests that wind steering is usually priced in multiples of thousands, not hundreds.

And then imagine how many of these kits he is going to sell a year. It really isn't a get rich scheme!! 100 sold, a huge 30k before expenses and tax.

And i doubt very much he will sell 100 a year even if it is the best thing ever.

Good luck to him I say!!
 
I used a haslar pendulum on my old boat for some years.
Whilst I wish this designer builder every success £300 seems a lot of money compared to a tiller pilot for a basic kit?

No it's still cheaper than a tiller pilot, and looks better value but as stated above, a very different kettle of fish! Best of British to the guy.
 
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£300 for a windvane a lot of money? You've got to be kidding! Okay, it's a kit so maybe best to compare to something like Mr. Vee rather than the one I've ordered from Cornwall. The Hebridean is an absolute bargain and probably better than most DIY solutions à la Bill Belcher.
 
£300 for a windvane a lot of money? You've got to be kidding! Okay, it's a kit so maybe best to compare to something like Mr. Vee rather than the one I've ordered from Cornwall. The Hebridean is an absolute bargain and probably better than most DIY solutions à la Bill Belcher.

Hi 2nd_app, which wind vane are you getting, out of interest? I have a Sea Feather, havent had a chance to test it, Jerry
 
Hi 2nd_app, which wind vane are you getting, out of interest? I have a Sea Feather, havent had a chance to test it, Jerry

Not that one ;-)
The SeaFeather does come with a very good reputation indeed and I was quite tempted. What I wasn't too keen on however was all the cockpit clutter and the inevitable plumber's shop you end up with on boats with transom hung rudders. In the end I decided in favour of a Autosteer trim tab solution made by Hydra Engineering:
http://www.hydrasw.co.uk/html/autosteer_frameset.htm
Obviously this won't suit everyone but as the saying goes: different ships, different long splices.
 
>I would therefor like to make it clear that by the term 'horizontal' I mean something set at an angle exactly parallel to the horizon. Not horizontal-ish. Not nearly horizontal, or looks about horizontal, or 20 degrees from horizontal.

Surely anything parallel to the horizon ceases to be horizontal when the boat starts pitching under sail up wind. Also I wouldn't buy a wind vane that has control lines to the steering and especially not if they are crossed.
 
Surely anything parallel to the horizon ceases to be horizontal when the boat starts pitching under sail up wind. Also I wouldn't buy a wind vane that has control lines to the steering and especially not if they are crossed.[/QUOTE]

Yes. It would only be horizontal when the boat is sitting upright. I was trying to differentiate the angle from the vanes that are 20 degrees off horizontal. I must ask – if you don't want to connect the lines to the steering, where would you connect them? Are there wind vanes without lines?
 
Surely anything parallel to the horizon ceases to be horizontal when the boat starts pitching under sail up wind. Also I wouldn't buy a wind vane that has control lines to the steering and especially not if they are crossed.

Yes. It would only be horizontal when the boat is sitting upright. I was trying to differentiate the angle from the vanes that are 20 degrees off horizontal. I must ask – if you don't want to connect the lines to the steering, where would you connect them? Are there wind vanes without lines?[/QUOTE]

Hydrovane for one...
 
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