Windvane - PBO editorial disclaimer?
- Thread starter rob2
- Start date
afterpegassus
Well-Known Member
"Also I wouldn't buy a wind vane that has control lines to the steering and especially not if they are crossed"
Would you care to elucidate?
I have been looking for a windvane for some time and even second hand, the costs are prohibitive. This looks to be an absolute bargain.
Would you care to elucidate?
I have been looking for a windvane for some time and even second hand, the costs are prohibitive. This looks to be an absolute bargain.
rob2
Well-Known Member
Having posted this thread and having perhaps misunderstood the published statement, I'd like to thank people for their replies. Now I understand what was meant, I must sit down and do the calculations as to what losses are truly incurred by a 20 degree inclination! No, life's too short. I do wonder whether it matters on a well mannered boat on anything but a run, where of course the apparent windspeed is so reduced that sensitivity becomes a problem. To that end I am curious as to whther incorporating sealed stainless bearings on the vane and control rod pivots might not contribute an even greater improvement. It's not that difficult to incorporate bearings in these areas without recourse to welded assemblies and would still be simple enough to replace when neccessary.
Please understand, the original intention was simply to query what was the true meaning of the text as published - ideally I wouldn't have done it in quite such a robust manner, though. All my past posts without any contentious comment have had no replies, though! I find the design fascinating, although I would like to change certain aspects (not the geometry), with a view to try potential improvements and maybe make it more rugged. The unprotected pushrod scares me, having seen how crew and passers-by grab hold of anything without regard to its integrity. I suspect that most designers adopted the inclined pivot as it was simpler and more reliable than fine tuning the feedback to eliminate oversteering.
Incidentally, Jan Alkema's USD design also appeals for its well thought out simplicity and the combination with the RHM pendulum is a brilliant concept should you have a transom mounted rudder (I don't).
Rob.
Please understand, the original intention was simply to query what was the true meaning of the text as published - ideally I wouldn't have done it in quite such a robust manner, though. All my past posts without any contentious comment have had no replies, though! I find the design fascinating, although I would like to change certain aspects (not the geometry), with a view to try potential improvements and maybe make it more rugged. The unprotected pushrod scares me, having seen how crew and passers-by grab hold of anything without regard to its integrity. I suspect that most designers adopted the inclined pivot as it was simpler and more reliable than fine tuning the feedback to eliminate oversteering.
Incidentally, Jan Alkema's USD design also appeals for its well thought out simplicity and the combination with the RHM pendulum is a brilliant concept should you have a transom mounted rudder (I don't).
Rob.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
OK. I was thinking servo pendulum.[/QUOTE]
Wind pilot pacific plus
http://www.windpilot.com/n/wind/en/prod/plus/
I am currently modifying my Monitor to have an auxiliary rudder as I have hydraulic steering which will creep when operated by cables from the pendulum blade.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
Having read the PBO article this morning, I have found this thread interesting. What I also find surprising is the OP did not look at the web site of the Hebridean. It does contain a lot of information and this pdf file explains how it works. http://www.windvaneselfsteering.co.uk/picts/DIY pdf2.pdf
My initial thoughts are it is an interesting new product and could be of interest to many long distance budget sailors. Would it be of interest for my boat? Well not at present as I have no plans for long distance destinations. I can certainly see the sense in being simple, cheap and relatively easy to fit and use, plus it would conserve battery power complared to an electric powered machine.
My initial thoughts are it is an interesting new product and could be of interest to many long distance budget sailors. Would it be of interest for my boat? Well not at present as I have no plans for long distance destinations. I can certainly see the sense in being simple, cheap and relatively easy to fit and use, plus it would conserve battery power complared to an electric powered machine.
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M
Mark Turner
Guest
I wonder how far one would have to sail for it to be worthwhile. We sailed across Lyme Bay (Dartmouth to Lyme Regis) this summer and the Tillor Pilot held course well, but with constant minor adjustments. Apart from the drain on the electrics, I could have done without the noise it makes. I'd have thought that a couple of hours or more sailing was worth the effort of setting up a windvane, but I may be wrong. Definitely tempted by the Hebridean. To those with experience, does it look robust enough?
Concerto
Well-Known Member
Reading the Hebridean web site further, there is a very clear explinantion of how it works.
http://www.windvaneselfsteering.co.uk/wind-vane-design-features.htm
http://www.windvaneselfsteering.co.uk/wind-vane-design-features.htm
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>I have been looking for a windvane for some time and even second hand, the costs are prohibitive. This looks to be an absolute bargain.
Performance is based on the premise of you get what you pay for, when long distance sailing over 75% of long distance boats we saw that had wind vanes had Hydrovanes. Smallest was 32 feet and largest 50 feet. Aries was next but we saw a number corroded by the use of dissimilar metals. The most important thing when buying a wind vane is to bear in mind the weight of the boat determines the size of the sail and the rudder on a wind vane so one size wind vane will only fit one size boat. Hydrovanes are built to order in different sizes based on weight. Never buy one new or second hand if you don't know what weight of boat it was made for, get it wrong and it won't work it will be under or over powered.
Performance is based on the premise of you get what you pay for, when long distance sailing over 75% of long distance boats we saw that had wind vanes had Hydrovanes. Smallest was 32 feet and largest 50 feet. Aries was next but we saw a number corroded by the use of dissimilar metals. The most important thing when buying a wind vane is to bear in mind the weight of the boat determines the size of the sail and the rudder on a wind vane so one size wind vane will only fit one size boat. Hydrovanes are built to order in different sizes based on weight. Never buy one new or second hand if you don't know what weight of boat it was made for, get it wrong and it won't work it will be under or over powered.
rob2
Well-Known Member
In answer to the implied criticisms so far, i have indeed read everything on the Hebridean website and am impressed by the design, though it could be made more robust - as I said already, not to affect its performance but to protect it from anyone who grabs hold of it! Some of the claims I would like to argue with the designer (and would be pleased if he convinced me) as feedback and feathering are principles utilised in all servo pendulum designs, just that the Hebridean uses a new concept of geometry to make these happen. In a "conventional" bevel geared assembly, where the vane turret remains fixed, the swing of the pendulum progressively straightens the pendulum blade as it "walks" up the gear. In addition, whilst it can be optimized to a particular boat by adjusting the size of vane and pendulum, a production servo pendulum will always produce input to the tiller lines. The Hydrovane, being an auxiliary rudder system must be of a suitable size for the indvidual boat - and it's not so much the displacement of the boat but but its responsiveness to the rudder which dictates this size. I also have reservations that friction is not a potential problem, that just doesn't sit right with me as it will damp the movement of the vane and pendulum throughout its cycle. It may be that that is acceptable, but I can't see that it won't perform better if the friction is reduced.
This is an ingenious design of windvane with "simple" geometry addressing the issues I've long pondered, offering excellent value for money and well thought through. I'm trying to come to terms with the claims, not doubting in any way that it works - I'd have one in preference to something like a Monitor, because that is so heavy and cannot be removed on the mooring = I've seen those buckled beyond use by passing Mobos...
There are two sister shiops to my own down in the west country who like to sail in company. One is usually single handed and the other tends to have family aboard, so even worse! They both use their windvanes (Naviks) once out of harbour. So much easier to launch the spinnaker or explain to the kids how to flush the heads, etc. when you're not tied to the helm.
Rob.
This is an ingenious design of windvane with "simple" geometry addressing the issues I've long pondered, offering excellent value for money and well thought through. I'm trying to come to terms with the claims, not doubting in any way that it works - I'd have one in preference to something like a Monitor, because that is so heavy and cannot be removed on the mooring = I've seen those buckled beyond use by passing Mobos...
There are two sister shiops to my own down in the west country who like to sail in company. One is usually single handed and the other tends to have family aboard, so even worse! They both use their windvanes (Naviks) once out of harbour. So much easier to launch the spinnaker or explain to the kids how to flush the heads, etc. when you're not tied to the helm.
Rob.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
Are you sure? My understanding is that the only difference is the length of the vertical section - so that the workings sit at the correct height. Perhaps you can point to supporting information on the Hydrovane site?
I admit to having bought one second hand (and am about to install it) since my new boat has wheel steering and is, anyway, too big for the Sea Feather I was using.
Sitting in shelter watching a wind vane operate is one of life's few pleasures.
afterpegassus
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE Performance is based on the premise of you get what you pay for.[/QUOTE]
Indeed? so gold taps will turn water on and off a lot better than a set of brass ones will?
£3500 for a Hydrovane v £300 (+some elbow grease) for a Hebridean has got to merit some consideration
Indeed? so gold taps will turn water on and off a lot better than a set of brass ones will?
£3500 for a Hydrovane v £300 (+some elbow grease) for a Hebridean has got to merit some consideration
fishermantwo
Well-Known Member
Really!
I must admit I have never seen a Hydrovane in "The Flesh" There are a few around I know but extremely expensive, roughly twice the price of a Fleming or Monitor. The first windvane I built used the Z crank and it was hard to tune out the overfeed back. My newly constructed replica Monitor uses bevel gears and this is a far superior system that uses the same ratios and leverages as all the popular modern windvanes. If you look at a spreadsheet of all the vanes now they are almost identical regarding ratios etc.
As far as ease of use. I sail almost exclusively with the vane. I disengage to tack and set it again after the tack, probably 15 to 20 seconds to re engage. Occasionally I may have to fine tune the settings but I don't move from my sitting position in the cockpit. Certainly don't wander down to the stern to play about like with a Hydrovane.
Youtube of mine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isw529SdN8s
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macd
Well-Known Member
He's peddled this before. It was tosh then and it's tosh now. For almost all windvane systems (and the majority are assuredly not Hydrovanes), which is to say servo-pendulum systems, one size pretty much does fit all. (Although some smaller systems are restricted to boats under around 30 feet, mainly by virtue of physical strength.) Not the least of the virtues of servo systems is that the faster (ie bigger) the boat, the more steering power is generated. So in reality the difference between a system for a 35-footer and a 55-footer would be in the mountings attaching it to the boat. (Thus, to take on example, a Windpilot Pacific for either such vessel would be exactly the same price.)
elrig
New Member
elrig
New Member
rob2;4895699 I am curious as to whther incorporating sealed stainless bearings on the vane and control rod pivots might not contribute an even greater improvement. Rob.[/QUOTE said:
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KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>Are you sure? My understanding is that the only difference is the length of the vertical section - so that the workings sit at the correct height. Perhaps you can point to supporting information on the Hydrovane site?
In Lagos, Portugal the skipper of a 32 foot boat we knew well fitted a Hydrovane. The sail and rudder were les than half the size of ours and our boat was a 38 foot heavy displacement steel ketch weighing 14 tons fully loaded. One interesting thing is he said it didn't work properly so I went out for a sail with them and the problem was they weren't balancing the boat with the sails there was generally weather helm. Once I pointed it out , they had to put a couple of rolls in the genoa, it was fine. If you want to check they are built to order and why give them a call, I can't find anything on their site.
In Lagos, Portugal the skipper of a 32 foot boat we knew well fitted a Hydrovane. The sail and rudder were les than half the size of ours and our boat was a 38 foot heavy displacement steel ketch weighing 14 tons fully loaded. One interesting thing is he said it didn't work properly so I went out for a sail with them and the problem was they weren't balancing the boat with the sails there was generally weather helm. Once I pointed it out , they had to put a couple of rolls in the genoa, it was fine. If you want to check they are built to order and why give them a call, I can't find anything on their site.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
I did quite a bit of research before buying second hand and certainly have never seen anything about them being built to order. They are built to various shaft lengths. If you are telling people not to buy an article second hand, I really think you need to support your statement with evidence.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
> Certainly don't wander down to the stern to play about like with a Hydrovane
You don't have to, it has a wheel that adjusts the angle of the sail and is adjusted by a continuous line the you can take to the cockpit.
>I did quite a bit of research before buying second hand and certainly have never seen anything about them being built to order. They are built to various shaft lengths. If you are telling people not to buy an article second hand, I really think you need to support your statement with evidence.
As I said call Hydrovane to ask about sail and rudder sizes. My evidence is we have seen different size sails and rudders on different sized/weight boats, of which I have given an example or have you missed that?
You don't have to, it has a wheel that adjusts the angle of the sail and is adjusted by a continuous line the you can take to the cockpit.
>I did quite a bit of research before buying second hand and certainly have never seen anything about them being built to order. They are built to various shaft lengths. If you are telling people not to buy an article second hand, I really think you need to support your statement with evidence.
As I said call Hydrovane to ask about sail and rudder sizes. My evidence is we have seen different size sails and rudders on different sized/weight boats, of which I have given an example or have you missed that?
janalkema
New Member
On a heeled boat the angle of the vane axis is also tilted , depending of the basic vane axis tilt angle , the heeling angle and the adjusted course angle between vane and yacht. The formula is given in the article, see the post of AMULET. This also yields for the Hebridean windvane.
Jan
Jan
macd
Well-Known Member
If you are who I think you are from elsewhere, you know quite a bit about this subject. Welcome to the forum.