Tim O
Well-Known Member
Hi....if I were looking out for a wind vane self steering unit for a 33 foot centre cockpit ketch with hydraulic wheel steering...what would you recommend, and why?
Cheers
Cheers
Windvane for centre cockpit wheel steering ketch
- Thread starter Tim O
- Start date
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Hydrovane, no lines back to the wheel works very well.
Balbas
Well-Known Member
What sort of ballpark figure would one be looking at for a hydrovane? (The website gives nothing grade prices).
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Agree Hydrovane for this job. Wind the wheel to lose the weather helm and clutch it in and you are done.
Mucho dinero. Ball park 4 or 5K.
Mucho dinero. Ball park 4 or 5K.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Minn has the price about right £4 to5K
Kurrawong_Kid
Well-Known Member
There is one possible snag with a Hydrovane if you are intending to use marinas a lot. The rudder is not easy to attach and detach and may make manoeuvres, particularly astern, difficult. With servo pendulum types usually the paddle can be swung out of the water but, of course, you have the hassle of steering lines. I had a hinge made up to allow the rudder of the Hydrovane to be swung up but it was a failure because waves breaking against the raised rudder distorted the gearing forks which I then had to have straightened. Depends on your type of sailing and how quickly you can launch and recover your Dinghy to attach or detach the rudder I suppose.
Tim O
Well-Known Member
BobnLesley
Well-Known Member
Trust my boat to need the most expensive type !
Provided that you don't want/need it this month, then keep your eyes open for a secondhand one, the cost saving, even if you have to ship it from a long way away can be substantial.
Also whilst agreeing that the Hydrovane's the easiest to install to a centre cockpit yacht, depending upon configuration, it's not impossible to install and connect a servo-pendulum unit to a centre cockpit steering position. In my experience and generalising: Servo pendulum units provide a stronger steering force than the Hydrovane does, however, that advantage is diminished with each metre of control-line or set of turning blocks that you're obliged to install between the unit and the wheel/tiller position. On a 33' footer the control line lengths will still be 'acceptable' reaching to a centre cockpit and if your set-up required just two or three sets of blocks, I'd opt for servo-pendulum, with four sets I'd be 50/50, depending upon how tight the turns needed to be and if it'd need 5-sets, then wait for a Hydrovane.
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
I like to climb aboard over the stern, so I have a good 12v linear drive on the quadrant with plenty of solar to keep the batteries up.
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
We also had a Hydrovane and it works fine in any weather the worst we had was 35 knots gusting 50. On the manoeuvring front we had a long keel with cutaway forefoot and it had prop walk. The solution is simple tie a doubled back warp from an amidships cleat to a cleat near the bows, use 800 revs and wait until you see water going over the rudder release the warp and the boat will go straight back. If the Hydrovane rudder is causing a problem do that.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
There have been a couple of answers to that problem one involving a hinge which required a bit of engineering and potential weakening of the shaft, the other involved making a bracket on the rudder which attached to a boat hook allowing the rudder to be lowered and raised whilst connected to the boat hook, pulling and inserting the pin was probably difficult.
However I managed a long keel boat in and out of tight marina berths for years without either. But if you are concerned then when coastal sailing when you really don't need a wind pilot remove it and only fit it when doing significant voyages.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
I use a Monitor on my centre cockpit; previous owners used the Monitor for long distance sailing.
You can set it up with lines each side of the cockpit but that can block, say the cockpit locker lid, or lines both comming down one side and turning to wheel.
The Monitor servo rudder flips up easily and there is an emergency steering rudder that can be bought as well.
Lots of info on Monitors website. https://www.scanmarinternational.com
No doubt, more complicated than the Hydrovane. RKJ is supposed to be writing up about the issues experienced with kit on the GGR, so it may be worthwhile waiting for that before making your choice.
You can set it up with lines each side of the cockpit but that can block, say the cockpit locker lid, or lines both comming down one side and turning to wheel.
The Monitor servo rudder flips up easily and there is an emergency steering rudder that can be bought as well.
Lots of info on Monitors website. https://www.scanmarinternational.com
No doubt, more complicated than the Hydrovane. RKJ is supposed to be writing up about the issues experienced with kit on the GGR, so it may be worthwhile waiting for that before making your choice.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I have an Aeries lift up vane gear. This is because the whole unit can be removed in under 2 minutes for racing, thus greatly reducing weight & drag of the steering oar.
This would power a wheel steered yacht Ok if the pullies & lines were set up with as little friction as possible. Length of line (in my view) is irrelevant it is friction from turning blocks that matter.
the main point to consider with steering gear is the directional stability of the boat.
Regardless of what people say about setting sails to balance the boat, one cannot always do this.
My fin keeled Hanse with self tacking jib is about as directionally stable as a drunk on wacky baccy.
This means that the steering, whether electric or wind, has to react quickly & work continuously.
So if one bought, say, a Hydrovane one would have to ask a question.
It works by setting the helm at a set position to hold the boat on course. You then use the steering system to trim that as the boat sails along.
I doubt that would work on my boat, for example, because there is absolutely no chance (in any wind above light & small sea) of setting the tiller in one position & expecting the boat to hold a course.This means that I doubt that I would ever get to a point where I could set the Hydrovane successfully.
Hydrovane sailors will tell me I am wrong but I have been studying this for years & made several steering gears for myself on boats.
With a servo gear the steering mechanism is always moving the main rudder, the Aeries, for example, at 6kts can supply more power to a steering cord than a man can hold for very long so is very powerful. I suspect that the Monitor is better.
So the OP needs to talk to owners who actually use the gears ( too many yachts have gears that are obviously not used much, So ask someone who is actually using one) & consider how his own yacht handles.
If it sails in a straight line without much input from the helm then yes to the Hydrovane. if not but is light on the helm then a servo gear. If neither then forget it.
This would power a wheel steered yacht Ok if the pullies & lines were set up with as little friction as possible. Length of line (in my view) is irrelevant it is friction from turning blocks that matter.
the main point to consider with steering gear is the directional stability of the boat.
Regardless of what people say about setting sails to balance the boat, one cannot always do this.
My fin keeled Hanse with self tacking jib is about as directionally stable as a drunk on wacky baccy.
This means that the steering, whether electric or wind, has to react quickly & work continuously.
So if one bought, say, a Hydrovane one would have to ask a question.
It works by setting the helm at a set position to hold the boat on course. You then use the steering system to trim that as the boat sails along.
I doubt that would work on my boat, for example, because there is absolutely no chance (in any wind above light & small sea) of setting the tiller in one position & expecting the boat to hold a course.This means that I doubt that I would ever get to a point where I could set the Hydrovane successfully.
Hydrovane sailors will tell me I am wrong but I have been studying this for years & made several steering gears for myself on boats.
With a servo gear the steering mechanism is always moving the main rudder, the Aeries, for example, at 6kts can supply more power to a steering cord than a man can hold for very long so is very powerful. I suspect that the Monitor is better.
So the OP needs to talk to owners who actually use the gears ( too many yachts have gears that are obviously not used much, So ask someone who is actually using one) & consider how his own yacht handles.
If it sails in a straight line without much input from the helm then yes to the Hydrovane. if not but is light on the helm then a servo gear. If neither then forget it.
DownWest
Well-Known Member
Just thinking...that a SP rope to wheel system might not work with hydraulic steering? if the system creeps at all, then it will gradually run out of correction room.
pcatterall
Well-Known Member
We have a similar yacht and have discussed long distance sailing especially a proposed move to the Canaries. An option we considered was a duo gen to keep the autopilot topped on and balancing the sails to minimise the work of the autopilot.
I recognize that the Duogen is not to effective in wind mode but there is always plenty of wind in Lanzarote?
I recognize that the Duogen is not to effective in wind mode but there is always plenty of wind in Lanzarote?
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
That is the exact reason why a normal urvo vane self steering will not work in this case.
I have hydraulic steering with a monitor self steering but designed and built an auxiliary rudder for steering.
Wind Pilot do a servo vane with an auxiliary rudder.
https://www.windpilot.com/n/wind/en/prod/plus/
jeanpaulcopie
Well-Known Member
I'm not so young! I"m 79! Sailed all my life and had wind vanes since the seventies! Plastimo "Navik" the first one on a "Sangria" 7.80m. Very effective vane and 2nd hand cheap...if you can get it! Then a Monitor on a 12m steel yacht (Rêve d'Antilles" Finot design. Round the world single handed with it. Now I have à Hydrovane. The best I ever had! No lines etc... on my old centre cockpit Amel Kirk bought 2nd hand some six years ago, getting fed up with steel maintanence... Sailed with it from Med to Brittany via Azores. Brilliant. No lines, Emergency rudder if necessary, Up wind or downwind . Easy to fit a small autopilot on the vane rudder in necessary...The only drawback would be the vane rudder can't be tilted, but I've never had trouble whlist backing even in packed Saint Peter's Port! An other option could be "Windpilot Pacific PLUS" which is also independant from the wheel roughly same price, same wheight (50Kgs)
geem
Well-Known Member
We sail with a Windpilot on a 44ft centre cockpit ketch. The Windpilot is an excellent unit. Well engineered. It is not as bulky as some of the other servo pendulem types and has the advantage that the rudder can be swung up out of the water.
We run the steering lines down one side of the cockpit to the wheel. Works fine with little inconvenience.
Last year we sailed in company through the Bahamas with a German couple who had a 40ft cruiser/racer. They had a hydrovane. The skipper was very experienced and had done a lot of racing. His previuos boat was a Pogo and before that he commissioned an aluminium racing boat. On the racing boat he used a Windpilot. He says it wasnt successful as the boat was a high speed sledge. It would plane easily off the wind. The Windpilot steered so efficiently that when he surfed the change in apparent wind angle caused the corresponding change in boat direction. On his Pogo he installed a Hydrovane. He said for a fast planing hull the Hydrovane was better simply because it is so slow to react. It hasnt started to respond to the apparent wind angle change by the time the surf was ending. He also onstalled a Hydrovane on the cruiser racer for the same reason. Our fin and skeg design isnt readily going to surf, although we do hit over 10kts surfing in the right conditions, but she is a heavy boat with all our cruising gear onboard and a heavy lead keel. Our discussion with our German friend confirmed that he believed the servo pendulem is far better for our type of boat.
A previous trip from Bonaire to Haiti in company with another Trintella using a Hydrovane showed the differences as to how a servo pendulem type and a hydrovane steered side by side. Out Trintella 44 has a skeg mounted rudder. The friends Trintella 45 has a spade rudder although they are the same hull and keel. In 2.5/3metre seas hitting us on the stern quarter and 25/30kts of wind it was a good test.
The waves would try to knock the stern around on both boats. The Windpilot on our boat would counter the change instantly and we would get minimal course change as the Windpilot poured lock on rapidly ( we have 3.4 turn lock to lock so we have 1:2 pulleys in our steering lines to double the effective turns at the wheel). The Trintella 45 with the Hydrovane would be knocked off course quote noticably before the Hydrovane reacted and brought the boat back on course. We watched this repeatedly. Our friends brought it up as a point of discussion when we arrived in Haiti as to how much less we were knocked off course by the waves. Both systems works but the servo pendulem, in those conditions did a better job. You cant beat the boats own rudder for dealing with the correction needed whena large wave tries to push the boat off course but this is only one aspect when choosing the best system for your boat. Some of the effect may be down to the differences in rudder design between the two boats. Our rudder is noticably deeper at 5’6”. The full skeg and rudder provide a lot of lateral resistance and good tracking where as the balanced spade rudder on the Trintella 45 is less deep but longer front to back so giving a similar area to our rudder but not inculding the area of our skeg. Hope this helps
We run the steering lines down one side of the cockpit to the wheel. Works fine with little inconvenience.
Last year we sailed in company through the Bahamas with a German couple who had a 40ft cruiser/racer. They had a hydrovane. The skipper was very experienced and had done a lot of racing. His previuos boat was a Pogo and before that he commissioned an aluminium racing boat. On the racing boat he used a Windpilot. He says it wasnt successful as the boat was a high speed sledge. It would plane easily off the wind. The Windpilot steered so efficiently that when he surfed the change in apparent wind angle caused the corresponding change in boat direction. On his Pogo he installed a Hydrovane. He said for a fast planing hull the Hydrovane was better simply because it is so slow to react. It hasnt started to respond to the apparent wind angle change by the time the surf was ending. He also onstalled a Hydrovane on the cruiser racer for the same reason. Our fin and skeg design isnt readily going to surf, although we do hit over 10kts surfing in the right conditions, but she is a heavy boat with all our cruising gear onboard and a heavy lead keel. Our discussion with our German friend confirmed that he believed the servo pendulem is far better for our type of boat.
A previous trip from Bonaire to Haiti in company with another Trintella using a Hydrovane showed the differences as to how a servo pendulem type and a hydrovane steered side by side. Out Trintella 44 has a skeg mounted rudder. The friends Trintella 45 has a spade rudder although they are the same hull and keel. In 2.5/3metre seas hitting us on the stern quarter and 25/30kts of wind it was a good test.
The waves would try to knock the stern around on both boats. The Windpilot on our boat would counter the change instantly and we would get minimal course change as the Windpilot poured lock on rapidly ( we have 3.4 turn lock to lock so we have 1:2 pulleys in our steering lines to double the effective turns at the wheel). The Trintella 45 with the Hydrovane would be knocked off course quote noticably before the Hydrovane reacted and brought the boat back on course. We watched this repeatedly. Our friends brought it up as a point of discussion when we arrived in Haiti as to how much less we were knocked off course by the waves. Both systems works but the servo pendulem, in those conditions did a better job. You cant beat the boats own rudder for dealing with the correction needed whena large wave tries to push the boat off course but this is only one aspect when choosing the best system for your boat. Some of the effect may be down to the differences in rudder design between the two boats. Our rudder is noticably deeper at 5’6”. The full skeg and rudder provide a lot of lateral resistance and good tracking where as the balanced spade rudder on the Trintella 45 is less deep but longer front to back so giving a similar area to our rudder but not inculding the area of our skeg. Hope this helps
Paragon
Well-Known Member
I have just bought a new Hydrovane (currently sitting in marina office as no room on boat for all the boxes) and can confirm the price estimates, you'll be near £5k than 4 but an amazingly engineered bit of kit. I too have center cockpit ketch at 38' and ability to mount offset was also a major plus with the Hydrovane as well as no lines in cockpit and emergency rudder plus poss aux electronic steering with a cheapo tiller-pilot rather than use main autopilot.