Windvane for centre cockpit wheel steering ketch

[geem]

I have just bought a new Hydrovane (currently sitting in marina office as no room on boat for all the boxes) and can confirm the price estimates, you'll be near £5k than 4 but an amazingly engineered bit of kit. I too have center cockpit ketch at 38' and ability to mount offset was also a major plus with the Hydrovane as well as no lines in cockpit and emergency rudder plus poss aux electronic steering with a cheapo tiller-pilot rather than use main autopilot.

I think you will also find that just about all servo pendulem units these days have the option for cheapo tiller pilot as well. Certainly the Windpilot does.
With regard to emergency rudder, this topic has been well covered in previuos posts. If you can find a detailed accurate account of how a Hydrovane was used to steer a rudderless boat I am sure the forum would be very interested. My opinion is thst it a very good marketing trick.

 

[capnsensible]

Have used my Hydrovane on my centre cockpit moody for two transits. Dogs doodahs.

 

[Old Bumbulum]

My understanding of the OP's question comes from years of studying these things but little of using them, however...

The question that requires answering I believe is not so much which make or model but which type. The answer here is surely dictated - and I mean dictated - by the boat's hydraulic steering. I don't believe I've anywhere seen it claimed that Servo Pendulum systems are suitable in conjunction with hydraulic steering unless the hydraulic ram can somehow be disconnected which sounds unfeasable,, leave alone undesireable.

Thus the answer, I think, rather than "HYDROVANE!" or "ARIES!" is actually "Auxiliary Rudder" as some have alluded to.
There are several to choose from and some less common variants such as trim-tab with aux rudder for instance. I imagine what will drive the choice is ease of fitting (canoe sterns or sugar scoops don't help), neither do mizzen booms that project much beyond the transom.
That said Servo Pendulum systems are vastly more powerful and fast acting than Aux Rudder and the incovenience of lines led to the cockpit tends to be much overstated by those who prefer the other camp! I'd have SP every time if the boat would accept it but sometimes you don't have much of a choice. However on a long keeled ketch with good directional stability a AR should be well inside it's comfort zone.

See "Self Steering Under Sail" by Peter Förthmann" available as a free download via a google search - failing that I'll email a PDF. It's pretty much the bible for this business.

 

[Kelpie]

I think you will also find that just about all servo pendulem units these days have the option for cheapo tiller pilot as well. Certainly the Windpilot does.
With regard to emergency rudder, this topic has been well covered in previuos posts. If you can find a detailed accurate account of how a Hydrovane was used to steer a rudderless boat I am sure the forum would be very interested. My opinion is thst it a very good marketing trick.

Well first page on Google brought up this form the ARC:
https://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/arc-dismasting-and-rudder-failure-1582

 

[geem]

Well first page on Google brought up this form the ARC:
https://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/arc-dismasting-and-rudder-failure-1582

Sounds promising but like a said, detailed account of how it was achieved. From that one liner we know nothing. They could well have fabricated a rudder from a door and used the hydrovane to trim but we wont know unless we get a detailed account.

 

[Allan]

My only experience with wind Vane steering is a Hydrovane fitted offset on a Starlight 35. We've done three Atlantic crossings and a a trip to the Baltic. As we have a central ladder I find no problem removing the rudder. I find that doing a Mason impression helps, that's rolling up one trouser leg and using the first submerged step. In very tight situations I prefer to leave it on and use it to help get the stern around, mainly if I want to go against the prop walk. On a centre cockpit you would need some sort of rope system to do this. As far as all the other comments I pretty much agree with all of the above. The comparison on the two similar yachts is very interesting.
Allan

 

[Kelpie]

Sounds promising but like a said, detailed account of how it was achieved. From that one liner we know nothing. They could well have fabricated a rudder from a door and used the hydrovane to trim but we wont know unless we get a detailed account.

There is a little more information on Hydrovane's own website, which I was reluctant to link to as it might not be taken as impartial. It is of interest though. The boat apparently also had a problem with its mainsail, making it much harder to achieve a balanced sail trim. They used much reduced sail and a drogue in addition to the Hydrovane, so it was very much a jury rig rather than simply carrying on as if nothing had happened. But I don't think you can deny that the Hydrovane was really the key to maintaining control of the boat. Perhaps a jury rigged emergency rudder could have done the same job, but most accounts of such contraptions show that they are of very limited use. The recent rudder loss in the pacific (SV Hilma) showed that a jury rudder will only last a few hours before breaking- they needed something like five different versions.

Lots of questions remain. Would a Hydrovane be able to overpower a rudder that was jammed off-centre, or flapping loosely from side to side? If a rudder came adrift and left the skeg behind, would that be easier for the Hydrovane to cope with (more directional stability)? What effect does keel length have? Would the boat I linked to have had a much easier time if they could still have used their mainsail?

 

[Tim O]

Thanks everyone for the interesting discussion so far.

A little more information about the boat - she's a 33' bilge keeled ketch, with skeg-hung rudder and a near vertical (v. slight
ly overhanging) transom - Colvic Countess 33, like LadyInBed.

I curently spend a LOT of time in marinas as I live aboard so manoeuvring is something to consider - mind you...£6k worth of gear hanging off the back is gonna make one very careful!!!

Shes pretty good at holding a course with only a light touch on the helm (at least so far!)

There is no real hurry at getting a self-steering device, as Im not planning on any long-distance journeys for a while BUT my original question was prompted from my desire to always be "improving" the boat...usually by picking up second-hand kit on the cheap whenever I see something come up...so I was wondering what to look out for. I will certainlt follow up some of the links posted and read up more on this fascinating subject.

 

[Allan]

I've sailed a Westerly 33 sloop, with bilge keels but not windvane extensively and done 3 Atlantic crossings on a Starlight 35 with a Hydrovane. I'd like to add a couple of points to the above. If you have a ladder next to the Hydrovane removal of the rudder is not a big deal. You do have to roll up your trousers like a Mason! We have tethers on both the rudder and the vane to avoid losing them. Fitting the rudder is more awkward than removing it. If things are tight I leave the rudder on as I use it to help me steer. It's very useful when reversing against the prop kick. On a centre cockpit boat you would need some sort of rope/pulley system.
The comparison above of the two types on similar boats is very interesting certainly ours does veer about on the waves but we feel the course overall is very good.
The only people, I've spoken to, who are not happy with any windvane all have one thing in common, their vanes drive the rudder via a drum on the wheel.
I believe I'm correct in saying that one of the first retirements from the recent GGR had a drum driving a hydraulic steering system.
Good luck with your boat I looked at two of them before buying my Westerly, one in Gosport and one in Barry.
Allan

 

[Old Bumbulum]

In very tight situations I prefer to leave it on and use it to help get the stern around, mainly if I want to go against the prop walk.

If you'll excuse the fred drift could you expand on tht please? My new-to-me long keeler is a real handful in astern and I have a hydrovane fitted. Could you describe the technique?

 

[LadyInBed]

A thought - If you have a through deck hole to fit an emergency tiller, you could use that coupled to a tiller wind vane steering system.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

A thought - If you have a through deck hole to fit an emergency tiller, you could use that coupled to a tiller wind vane steering system.

I think the forces required because of the direct linkage would be to high for that to work.

 

[LadyInBed]

I think the forces required because of the direct linkage would be to high for that to work.

Wouldn't that depend on the tiller length?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Wouldn't that depend on the tiller length?

Yes it would but if the time I used my emergency tiller just to see what it was like and it was over 3' long it was hellishly difficult and heavy so I think it would have to be quite long.

It would no doubt help if the rudder was of the balanced design, mine was not.

 

[Allan]

If you'll excuse the fred drift could you expand on tht please? My new-to-me long keeler is a real handful in astern and I have a hydrovane fitted. Could you describe the technique?

It's very simple, I normally add the pump handle then if, for instance, I'm backing out of a finger pontoon, I turn the wheel then push the tiller across so the two rudders are about parallel. An old friend of mine, who had a 40ft long keeled boat with big overhangs, used to say just using the hydrovane rudder rather than the main rudder made her more manoeuvrable in tight spaces. I've found that, with either rudder, not turning them to the stops seems to work a little better.
I hope that helps. It's definitely worth having a try when there's nothing to hit!
Allan

 

[Old Bumbulum]

Allan, thanks, much as I imagined. I too find small rudder angles work better, I suspect the rudder just stalls beyond a spoke or two of deflection.

I'll be trying the Hydrovane out this season so will give it a try.

 

[Tim O]

Hi Allan....its Tim ex CYC and I have of course sailed with you on your old Westerly...plus I believe you looked at my boat Rhiannon before I bought her (she's the one with the lowered headroom and tongue and groove headlining!!!)

As I like simplicity I'm tending to prefer the thought of an auxiliary rudder system.

My emergency tiller arrangement looks hopeless...it's under a berth in the aft cabin with no through deck hole for the rudimentary tiller...of either have to knock the aft porthole through or basically be standing in the aft cabin below deck with my head poking out of the aft cabin hatch!!!...I should maybe improve that situation in any case!!!

 

[Allan]

Hi Allan....its Tim ex CYC and I have of course sailed with you on your old Westerly...plus I believe you looked at my boat Rhiannon before I bought her (she's the one with the lowered headroom and tongue and groove headlining!!!)

As I like simplicity I'm tending to prefer the thought of an auxiliary rudder system.

My emergency tiller arrangement looks hopeless...it's under a berth in the aft cabin with no through deck hole for the rudimentary tiller...of either have to knock the aft porthole through or basically be standing in the aft cabin below deck with my head poking out of the aft cabin hatch!!!...I should maybe improve that situation in any case!!!

It's a small world! We've done about 19000 miles since we had the Hydrovane fitted to this boat. After a few teething problems, caused by the fitting, it's been great. Not cheap if bought new but well worth it, in our opinion. Hydrovane try to discourage the second hand market, by explaining how they've "upgraded" some parts. If you can find a second hand one jump at it. They all work.
Good luck,
Allan