Windlass - with out without capstan? and why

[Neeves]

Our original windlass had no capstan, but had a gypsy said to accomodate both chain and appropriately sized rope. We never had a mixed rode 'with' the windlass and never tested it. We do have a spare rode, chain and rope, but we deploy it by hand.

It merits underlining - our anchors are minimalist, alloy and weigh 8kg each. Hand deployment and retrieval is easy. We carry 3 or 4. Our chain is equally minimalist, 75m of 6mm chain - again actually easy to retrieve by hand, if we had to, though hand retrieval would leave a big pile of chain to be fed into its locker - which would not be anything to look forward to on a dark, wet bumpy night!

We bought a new windlass and it too has a gypsy said to be compatible with chain and rope - but our chain is high tensile chain and it is, very, possible that the gypsy is undersized for the appropriately sized rope. Again we have a spare rode, 15m of chain and 40m of nylon - we continue to deploy and retrieve by hand.

One reason not to have a capstan, optioned in the new windlass, was that the windlass is under the deck - and there is no room for a capstan, without cutting a hole (allowing water ingress (over the windlass) - its a self draining locker (with big drain holes). The capstan also cost more and as we had done without for 15 odd years the decision was easy.

We have 2 mast mounted winches and then 2 sheet winches, one of which is electric, on or near the transom, each quarter, another sheet winch on the cabin roof and one amid ships on the transom for the mainsheet. If push came to shove we could use the electric sheet winch as a 'sort of' windlass replacement with rope and a chain hook - a bit of a faff - but possible.

A recent thread on windlass introduced the idea that a capstan on top of a windlass makes the whole assembly 'high' or tall and commonly the capstan is above deck level. The anchor/chain/bow locker hatch/lid has an appropriately located hole to allow the windlass to be located in the locker and the capstan to protrude. The protruding capstan can then be manually operated from above deck - but also allows breaking seas to flood the bow locker. Our capstan-less arrangement means we have a clear deck, nothing to trip over - and excellent for poseurs.

I can understand why older windlass have a capstan - the gypsy only accepted chain and historically mixed rodes were more common. Is the capstan something left over from a bygone time? - and no-one questions its supply (at an extra cost and inconvenience, it gets in the way and needs that hole in the hatch).

Three questions, so far

How often do people actually use the capstan - and what for?, given that many have all chain rode and many who have mixed rodes should be able to retrieve using the gypsies that (I thought all new windlass are supplied with) that can accept both chain and rope.

Secondly do people consciously try to 'seal' the gap round the capstan between it and the hatch/lid/cover to reduce the flood of water when seas break over the bow. If they do seal the gap round the capstan - what works?

We have never used our mast winches for anything other than halyards - is there any reason why they cannot replace a capstan (assuming you arrange the rope that needs a capstan to be fed to the mast winch vertically (using a block, say on a halyard).

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

I used a mast winch to recover a stuck anchor several times, on a breezing days when single handing (secondary anchors set really deep, since I had been pulling other anchors against it).

No problem. I started with a rolling hitch to get the line to the winch, and then just transitioned. Not electric, but it wasn't hard at all. I'm also pretty sure a combination gypsy couldn't get that kind of grip on rope. Enough to pull it into the locker, but not enough to bust out a stuck anchor.

 

[vyv_cox]

We replaced our old windlass specifically so that we could have one with a capstan. It is extremely useful when berthing in the Med on lazy lines, for which we use it frequently. It has been useful a couple of weeks ago when sorting out badly crossed anchors, hauling a heavy chain up with our hook. A friend uses his regularly as a mast climbing aid.

I do not understand the sealing question, ours is on a vertical windlass. What we do have to be careful with is to ensure that the anchor is shackled to the boat, as freeing the clutch can allow anchor and all the chain to run overboard. We have tested this possibility!

 

[duncan99210]

Our is a horizontal windlass with a capstan on one side, gypsy on the other. We use the capstan to recover the kedge when needed. Nice to have but not essential.

 

[jwilson]

I call the capstan a warping drum. Have used it once when singlehanded berthing into a difficult windward berth in very strong winds: astern to pontoon, step off sugarscoop with stern line from one quarter, once attached stern-to led a long line from bow to next pontoon cleat, and tried to pull bow in: too hard so I used windlass drum. As you get older brute force and agility diminishes, so you get sneakier.

Now also use it regularly to lead a halyard from mast base round bow roller and back to windlass to haul someone up mast. I have heard people say this is dangerous in case it jams on, but I have both up/down buttons and a cutout switch right by windlass.

 

[Frank Holden]

I call the capstan a warping drum. Have used it once when singlehanded berthing into a difficult windward berth in very strong winds: astern to pontoon, step off sugarscoop with stern line from one quarter, once attached stern-to led a long line from bow to next pontoon cleat, and tried to pull bow in: too hard so I used windlass drum. As you get older brute force and agility diminishes, so you get sneakier.

Now also use it regularly to lead a halyard from mast base round bow roller and back to windlass to haul someone up mast. I have heard people say this is dangerous in case it jams on, but I have both up/down buttons and a cutout switch right by windlass.

Like wise.... the drum you put the rope around is a warping drum, a vertical axis 'anchor lifter' is a capstan, a horizontal axis 'anchor lifter' is a windlass. Merchant ships usually have windlasses, warships have capstans...

That out of the way...

I have a vertical axis capstan with a warping drum on top.... rarely used but good to have when I do need it... raising the kedge, and tensioning headlines when lying to a 4 line tie off in a caleta..

Would I replace with the same... yes.

Stopping water going down the spurling pipe?... to stop most of it just jam an old towel down the pipe... to stop all of it jam an old towel down the pipe and put a bit of mortar over the top.... that was - maybe still is -
big ship practice.. bit extreme ... I just use the old towel method... stops 95%....

 

[paulieraw]

You could get a larger gypsy that would be suitable. Though like you unless it’s in hard I lift by hand.

 

[prv]

How often do people actually use the capstan - and what for?

On the sailing ship I used to sail on, the warping drum on the windlass was used for tensioning mooring warps. There was a capstan at the stern for doing the same there. I tend to assume the equivalent items on yachts are for the same purpose - unnecessary on average sized boats, but if you need to haul the bow of a 50-footer in closer to a pontoon with a strong breeze blowing off it, being able to drop the warp onto a powered drum would make life much easier and potentially safer. Above a certain size, mooring capstans near the stern are standard on mobos for pulling them up to the quay against a mediterranean lazy line.

Secondly do people consciously try to 'seal' the gap round the capstan between it and the hatch/lid/cover

Most people don't have the hatch arrangement you're talking about, so the question doesn't arise. But anchor lockers are generally considered free-flooding spaces so I doubt anyone who has a windlass protruding through a cutout in a hatch tries to seal around it.

We have never used our mast winches for anything other than halyards - is there any reason why they cannot replace a capstan

Presumably you could, but it would be much more of a faff needing pre-planning of snatch block locations and so on. If someone's just passed you a line during some kind of mooring manoeuvre in a strong wind, being able to clap three turns onto the drum at your feet before the load comes on is far more practical than leading it through a block or two up to the mast.

I don't think you need a warping drum on your windlass

Pete

 

[Neeves]

Thanks Pete,

I was starting to feel to have exposed my total ignorance of terminology and semantics - but was consoling myself in that members appears to have understood the topic of the thread! My excuse is that the people who make theses things don't know what they are called either!

I was not concerned at the lack of a 'warping drum' - simply musing that we did not have one, most appear to be equipped with such - so what did they use it for? I'm surprised that so many have found uses - but they might, probably, have heavier yachts (than our 7t full cruising mode - though we have slightly more windage, but that's managed as we have 2 motors ).

interesting responses I hope it continues to pan out the same way.

Why did naval ships have capstans and merchant ships windlass?

May you all enjoy the rest of the weekend.

Jonathan

 

[Frank Holden]

..... Why did naval ships have capstans and merchant ships windlass?

May you all enjoy the rest of the weekend.

Jonathan

Dunno but here is a piccy of 3 capstans on HMS Vanguard's foredeck http://www.maritimequest.com/warshi...battleships/vanguard_1944/05_hms_vanguard.jpg

Maybe the navy wants working stuff down below because they have very wet foredecks.... no need for warping drums as they have lots of underemployed matelots to pull on ropes...

Merchant ships want to put cargo down below and windlasses are cheaper?

At the end of the day... I dunno.... it just is.....

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

The only times when I used the warping drum was when I had a Centaur and that was only for lifting or lowering the deck-stepped mast using a 'jumper strut' (?) or 'jockey pole' (?) to get a better angle for the direction of pull. (This used the Spi pole held in the vertical plane with temporary 'shrouds'. Some people rig an A-frame for the same purpose).

Useful to have.

 

[Neeves]

Thanks Frank

Nice pic of Vanguard!

I happen to have the Lofrans brochure in front of me

The outer cover says:

LOFRANS Windlass

The Original Windlass

It covers both horizontal and vertical models

and they simply call that part devoted to rope a 'drum'.

It falls into the ambiguous area including 'kedge' which means different things to different people. Fortunately the meaning intended usually becomes apparent.

It would be no wonder if people were confused!

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I know of people who use the warping drum to raise their main - which seems sensible, though I'm not sure what they do when they reef (as then it does not seem sensible). Personally I prefer to raise the main from the cockpit and have the mainsheet to hand - but maybe they have big(ger) crews.

Jonathan

 

[davidmh]

Naval ships of old, the wooden ones had capstans so they could haul up the anchor using horizontal capstan bars slotted into the top of the capstan. Power was from a load of sailors tramping round it singing a shanty. You cannot do that with a horizontal axis drum. I would also have been simpler to construct and attach firmly to the frame of the boat.

David MH

 

[Kukri]

Dunno but here is a piccy of 3 capstans on HMS Vanguard's foredeck http://www.maritimequest.com/warshi...battleships/vanguard_1944/05_hms_vanguard.jpg

Maybe the navy wants working stuff down below because they have very wet foredecks.... no need for warping drums as they have lots of underemployed matelots to pull on ropes...

Merchant ships want to put cargo down below and windlasses are cheaper?

At the end of the day... I dunno.... it just is.....

I’ve seen some discussion about the third capstan and chain; nobody seems quite sure as to whether a battleship expected to lose anchors on a regular basis or whether it was for securing to a buoy with, without the bother of hanging off an anchor (not that that is very much bother). My guess is the latter, because down to quite recent times, merchant ships carried spare anchors but not spare cable or windlasses!

 

[Boo2]

...Merchant ships usually have windlasses, warships have capstans...

Why is that ?

Boo2

 

[prv]

I’ve seen some discussion about the third capstan and chain; nobody seems quite sure as to whether a battleship expected to lose anchors on a regular basis or whether it was for securing to a buoy with,

According to my 1937 manual of seamanship, a complete set of anchors for a warship was two bowers, a sheet anchor the same size as the bowers, a smaller stream anchor at the stern, and two kedges of about a tenth of the weight of the bower for the sort of manoeuvre where anchors are carried out by boats. Cruisers and below don’t carry stream anchors, and sloops and below don’t carry a sheet anchor or a second kedge. Submarines have only the two bowers.

The sheet anchor was for emergency use (I’ve heard the phrase used metaphorically for something that saves you in a difficult situation) and (in 1937) its “cable holder” (which seems to be navalese for a vertical-axis capstan that only accepts chain and can't be turned by hand) had no power drive, only a brake to control veering speed. To recover the sheet anchor, the cable would have to be transferred across the deck to the capstan on the centreline, which can be turned by steam or by hand. There's a procedure laid down in the book for doing that with any of the three foredeck cables - also one for recovering an anchor using a large tackle with the fall led all the way down the side-deck for "all hands" to tail onto .

There are several options offered for securing to a buoy, but they all start by shifting one of the bower anchors from the hawsehole to a "clump cathead" a little further aft down the ship's side and unshackling the cable from it. All end with the buoy temporarily secured below the hawsehole so that the end of the anchor cable can be lowered down to a party of seamen on top of the buoy, who shackle it on with the help of the blacksmith.

Pete

 

[vyv_cox]

I simply used the nomenclature employed by Maxwell, whose windlasses I have used for many years. Their website and instruction manual refer to 'capstans' throughout and they even have a VC model, vertical capstan.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

We could call them catheads. Isn't the English language wonderful, I think so.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

We could call them catheads. Isn't the English language wonderful, I think so.

A cathead is not used to weigh the anchor but is/was merely a horizontal beam jutting out from the shipside from which the anchor was hung and stowed.
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