Windlass problem, Part 2

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Southern Pacific horizontal windlass in a Moody S31. It is mounted by four bolts through a substantial GRP shelf across the back of the chain locker and getting it out is going to be a nightmare of contortion. About 10 years old but seldom used until last year.
Lat season it was working intermittently,I blamed the switch, not being able to get the plastic switch out intact I tore off the cables and after cleaning them up, by touching them got the thing to rotate forward and backward as expected. Fitted new Lofrans up down switch and cleaned or replaced up all the terminals on it and on the control box (solenoid).
Now when I operate the switch I get a loud click but no movement, there is about 13.5 v at the battery but the output cable terminals from the solenoid toward the windlass show around + or - 12.5 when the switch is held down. The gypsy is difficult to turn when it is at rest.
I presume that a windlass is just a reversible electric motor driving some gears so surely not much to go wrong. If it is getting 12 volts and under no load it should turn? The problem is that the whole top body is one alloy casting so the only access is through the bottom and the thing has to come right out to get the bottom plate off to examine it, this is going to involve much time and pain as the rear nuts can not be felt or seen in the narrow slot where the shelf meets the angled bulkhead, I am not good at working in awkward to reach spaces with my bum higher than my head. The manual on the website has an exploded diagram with part nos. but not much else. I was hoping it might be the solenoid which is cheap and easy to replace but it is outputting a current to the windlass.
So, if I get it out is there much hope that I can get it to go? I am hoping that it might just be another bad electrical connection but what else should I look at ?
Any suggestions gratefully considered including the one involving a skip.
 
I had similar, but with a Lofrans.
Only option is to remove the whole unit and solenoid and try to see if it works out of the boat.
I had the electrical motor out and looked at by a specialist and shorts in the windings made a new motor at £300
odd needed. Now perfect after 15 years hard use.
 
What exactly does the control box solenoid do? Is it simply to reverse the motor or is it more than that?
If I get the windlass out can I test it by connecting its leads directly to a battery?
In fact could I test it in situ by extending its leads and connecting them to a jump start pack?
I am baffled why upgrading cables and replacing a switch seems to have stopped it working.
 
How many wires between the solenoid and windlass? If 2 then it's a motor with one winding and it's reversed by swapping the connections in the solenoid. Some use 3 wires and the motor has 2 sets of windings, one for forward and one for reverse. The solenoid chooses which wire to connect. The 3rd wire is permanently attached (usually to negative).

Whichever, my first check would be for sticky brushes in the motor. They can get bunged up with graphite dust. The short term check is to give the windlass a sharp tap then try the thing again. It worked with my Lofrans Cayman.

The long term solution is to take it out and dismantle till you can get at the brushes then clean out their holders, reassemble and hope for another 10 years till it needs another clean out.

Or it could be something more serious of course.

Derek
 
Take it out and do the necessary inspections and repair, clean up or replace parts. I have just completed this with a 1974 installed windlass and it is now going like new. My point is that it is simple stuff, easily fixed. In the end my problem was just that the contacts in the solenoid had worn down and were no longer touching. As a by the way, new bearings, seals were easily available online for pennies. It is such a convenience to have a reliable windlass it is worth doing. Maybe pay the yard to remove it for you.
 
Been there, done that.

I don't know your windlass but they are all very similar.

You should be able to remove the motor from the windlass, its commonly held to the gear box with bolts and sometimes also a twist bayonet type connection. So you should not need to remove the windlass from the deck - in fact removing the windlass from the deck - you might find you need to take the motor of anyway, to get it out of the hole in the deck. The gear box is usually separable from the shaft/gypsy arrangement, again usually held by 4 bolts - sometimes the bolts holding the windlass to the deck also hold the gear box onto the shaft.

Most windlass comes a 3 parts, motor, gearbox and shaft/gypsy assembly. They are easy to assemble, new, and are often joined together insitu.

The seals/bearings at the gearbox can fail, the gearbox fills with salt, water and mud with an inevitable result and the windlass would be difficult to turn. Why the seals fail - someone stressed the windlass? - you will not bend the main shaft, or unlikely, (they are usually beefy) but the seals are a bit more delicate.

I understand the issues you have with access - sadly it might get worse!

Many windlass have many parts of the device made from cast aluminium, both the casting holding the shaft and the body of the gear box. Newer windlass sometimes now have polymer based casing for the gearbox. Commonly the bolts are stainless and when it was originally installed no-one bothered to isolate the bolts from the aluminium. You might find they have now seized.

If you thought accessing the bolts was difficult trying to free the bolts if seized is a nightmare - because there is so little room, you cannot see neither can you swing a hammer and you will be reluctant to use a blow torch.

So

I'd have another look and see if you cannot get the motor of as a start. I'd also try to get the gearbox separated from the shaft.

Once you have done that, or not - come back for more advice.

I'd try to do as much as you can yourself - by all means call in professional help but I'd wait till you work out the full implications. It might be cheaper to buy a new windlass!

Windlass are usually amazingly forgiving and as posted some last for decades with virtually no attention at all. Unfortunately when they are installed there is no thought to making them easy to service - maybe because they do last forever.

But I would try before calling in a professional.

Jonathan
 
It is an Australian windlass, so can only be accessed from underneath, the upper body is all one alloy casting containing the motor gears and shaft, so to get at anything you have to remove it, turn it over and unscrew the only access plate in the bottom, I would have to do that anyway even to replace it. I like the suggestion of giving it a sharp clout with a hammer, that will be my next move. I will try to contain my enthusiasm so as not to break the casing.
If the solenoid control is clicking loudly when the switch is operated and there is power at the output cables when I hold the switch down can I rule that out as the problem?
I was looking at the possibility of cutting of the studs with an angle grinder but would probably do more damage and then have the problem of extracting the stubs.
Thanks for the advice, it is a bit cold to start today even though the boat is covered.:)
 
Had another go today, extracting it is going to be very difficult, lots of white powder around the base of the alloy casting.
I noticed that the heat shrink sleeve over the negative terminal at the battery looked a bit lumpy, stripped it back and the terminal was lead which someone seemed to have tried to melt on to the wire, the terminal was moving on the wire, no evidence of solder. Not having a big enough terminal I managed to apply enough compression to crimp it the old one.
Went back up the front and tried Cpedw's cure of whacking the casing with a big spanner, I also rotated the gypsy which seemed only to go in one direction.
After a couple of whacks it did one turn upwards, whacking some more got it running but as soon as it was stopped it needed thumped some more to go again. So far it has only gone inward, refuses to go the other way though the solenoid still clicks.
On the presumption that possibly the only way to get this out is to smash it up or cut out the shelf it is sitting on, has anyone got any more ideas worth trying?
BTW, Thanks for all the help so far.
 
The link in post #5 describes a similar problem to the one I had with a Simpson Lawrence Seawolf windlass

When I got it to bits (yes, I am afraid that you WILL need to bite that bullet) I found that on one of the brushes, the braided copper lead was a green braid of Verdigris, which crumbled at a touch. I replaced the brush with a similar one from an angle grinder but the connection was not made to the incoming terminal, just to the brush holder via the spring and although the windlass worked for a while and hauled up the chain and anchor while the boat was on the hard, it failed again after one set/recovery in use on the water.

Last winter the windlass was removed and stripped again and I got a set of new brushes with the proper side-exit braid from Solent Tools in Millbrook, Southampton. Their web site is https://www.carbonbrush.co.uk/index.html

The windlass worked well all last year after this repair.

Best of luck.
 
The white Corrosion of the alloy base was fixed by me in the end by washing and wire brushing before filling and repairing with epoxy paste. Oh -- and I had a complete season of thumping the casing with a rubber mallet before I fixed it properly before I went finally mad. Others may disagree.
 
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