Wind speeds and racing

[roblpm]

Just looked up our sailing instructions and it says racing will take place in wind speeds up to 35-40 knots.

Last night wind was 22 knots gusting up to 30. (I think. Our wind instruments are bust and so are the ones at the marina!).

Low tide so no waves.

Racing was cancelled. We went for a practice sail. With number 3 jib and 3 reefs it was fine! My boat is a pretty light weight Parker 275 with a lifting keel so if we were alright the other boats with real keels would have been fine!

So not complaining (i cant complain about the race officer after my rants about being ood) but it seems a bit odd that it was called off.

Surely if people don't fancy it they can make their own mind up and then they lose points in the series?

Similarly I think part of the cancellation was to do with an ultra low tide and an undredged marina. Again we have a lifting keel which is a disadvantage most of the time.

So are we to cancel races that people don't fancy?!

 

[flaming]

The problem with using wind speeds as the only thing to judge if you should race is that it's not the only factor. I've raced in flat water in the lee of the IOW in winds of 35 gusting 40, and thought that absolutely fine. I've also raced in 25-30 in the Western Solent with truly evil wind over tide waves, and been very close to calling it a day, as I was getting very concerned about the rig, and the fact that the crew kept getting washed down the deck. 3 rigs came down that day...

The other part - the depth - is a little different. If a race committee has accepted the entry of a boat then I think they have a duty to run racing that this boat can actually do. So actions such as starting a race when it is known that a proportion of the entrants were trapped behind a cill, or selecting a mark that is in too shallow water for a competitor etc would leave them dealing with a large number of requests for redress.

Your handicap should take care of the fact that your keel is a performance disadvantage.

 

[DFL1010]

The question is: do you only run racing when it's fair (or likely to be), or only when it's safe?

If the latter, there's no lower limit (unless you race where the tide will run you onto the bricks or something else weird), and the upper limit could well be 40+kts.

If the former, then there's usually a lower limit of 5kts ish (one way to get a sensible idea is to look at OD rules, as most classes have a lower limit) as in less than that it's not likely to be a sensible, fair race but more of a lottery.
And, at the top end, there comes a point where you're not racing but trying to get around safely at the expense of close racing.


The trouble of course is, some boats go very well in 2-3kts, whereas others don't move until 12kts. Likewise, survival conditions for some are at 25kts, whereas others are just thinking about R1, and don't get unduly concerned until 35kts. However, I will say that geography plays a part in 'safety' here, of course. If there's a lee shore close by, then that is a greater concern than boat type, as all it takes is something to temporarily incapacitate that boat, and they're on the beach. However, if the nearest downwind danger is tens of miles away, then they may be able to self-rescue. However, (yes, on the third side of the coin), you need to consider how you would rescue them if you had to - if they're drifting off to France at 5kts, do you have the resources to rescue them?



As to low tides stopping people getting out: absolutely not a reason to cancel a race (only exception is that you only get one boat out, but whether to run a race for one boat is probably another story). Race times are hardly an unknown, nor are tide times. I used to sail on a boat that was kept 'inside' at Falmouth Marina, which for those that don't know has a drying bar in it. We'd have to go down the day before and move the boat, or we couldn't race. I think we might have forgotten once, but that was our error, and not the RO's.

 

[awol]

I think you need to have a conversation with Terry - probably more constructive than posting on here.
It is possible that the tendency towards lighter boats with hi-tech sails discourages racing in more "challenging" conditions. As an owner of a slow heavier boat the only way I can compete successfully against soapdishes, particularly in the tides of the Forth, is when the wind blows and I too get pissed off when races in my ideal weather are cancelled.

 

[DFL1010]

The other part - the depth - is a little different. If a race committee has accepted the entry of a boat then I think they have a duty to run racing that this boat can actually do. So actions such as starting a race when it is known that a proportion of the entrants were trapped behind a cill, or selecting a mark that is in too shallow water for a competitor etc would leave them dealing with a large number of requests for redress.

To me, these are two quite different questions. To me, it's the skipper's responsibility to move his/her boat if necessary in order to race. Just like if you have a sporty on a trailer, and you can only use the slipway at HW +-2h, then you get there at the right time and race, or don't and don't.

There may be an argument for having a discussion during the end-of-season washup, or preseason briefing, where people say something like, "If you change the start from 1000 to 1400, then you will get a dozen extra boats, so how about it chaps?", which is entirely reasonable. Cancelling a race because people forgot about the tide, not so much.


As to depth on the course, it's tricky. If a boat cannot get to a mark, then that's absolutely an improper action by the RC, and redress should be granted. However (I promise I'll stop saying that soon), if you've got a deep draft boat, and find a shallow patch you could have gone around, but everyone else can sail in the same bit of sea, then that's slightly more the skipper/navigator's muckup, not the RO's. Clearly there'll be a continuum between the two extremes, and it'll be a judgement call by the RO as to whether this is OK (or a call by the PC, if redress is requested). Remember though that the standard for redress is "through no fault of her (skipper's) own", so if you could have gone around the shallows, but didn't, then probably no redress for you.

 

[scottie]

I suspect that for many years there was a tendency for the RO not to cancel do to weather as it was seen to be absolving the skipper of responsibility particularly so with keel boats so perhaps a more cautious/realistic attitude is being taken here.

 

[flaming]

To me, these are two quite different questions. To me, it's the skipper's responsibility to move his/her boat if necessary in order to race. Just like if you have a sporty on a trailer, and you can only use the slipway at HW +-2h, then you get there at the right time and race, or don't and don't.

That depends if it's a viable option. Plenty of places have racing where the marina all the boats are kept in is the only viable safe haven for miles around. E.g. Brighton... I'd be miffed if racing was run at a time where I was trapped in a silted up Brighton marina, but a smaller boat was able to scrape out. Asking a boat to go out maybe 3 hours before the racing and hang about doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Agree that if you've just forgotten to move the boat to an accessible berth then that doesn't pass the "no fault of the boat" test.

I once got redress in an OD fleet because the berth we had been directed to by the marina turned out to be in a bit of a pool, and we were essentially trapped in it at low tide the following morning (when the rest of the fleet were leaving) and missed the first race. That was deemed not to be our fault, so we got average points.

On wind speeds I do agree that there has been a tendency to cancel in less wind than historically for a while now. We have a fantastic kite that we are happy to fly in winds up to 30kts, and the one time we got caught in 35+ with it up we just went faster. We haven't used it since 2013.

 

[DFL1010]

That seems like a generous outcome from your PC. Was the marina part of the OA etc?

62.1
A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made significantly worse by
(a)
an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee, organizing authority, equipment inspection committee or measurement committee for the event, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a party to the hearing;


As to your example of being stuck in the only marina, that seems like poor planning from the OA when they were putting the calendar together, and it'd be much better/easier/whatever to fix it then rather than on the day when someone mentions it.

 

[Robin]

One club we belonged to many years back cancelled passage races because the forecast for the next day was bad, when boats might be returning, that one really sucks as some of us would either choose to return immediately after finishing or stay an extra day or just sail back in whatever weather we had. On the other hand we once won a series because we went on the last race when 90% chose to chicken out.

 

[roblpm]

I think you need to have a conversation with Terry - probably more constructive than posting on here.
It is possible that the tendency towards lighter boats with hi-tech sails discourages racing in more "challenging" conditions. As an owner of a slow heavier boat the only way I can compete successfully against soapdishes, particularly in the tides of the Forth, is when the wind blows and I too get pissed off when races in my ideal weather are cancelled.

Im going to have to go deep cover or stop posting! Just seeking other opinions! Will raise at the appropriate time with the appropriate people!

Cheers

Rob

 

[mrming]

Your handicap should take care of the fact that your keel is a performance disadvantage.

A side point, but I sailed the Super Seal (predecessor of the OPs Parker 275) on CHS and later IRC for a few seasons and the only problem we had was running out of space for trophies.

The Super Seal's lifting keel was unballasted whereas in the OP's updated version some of the ballast was moved to the keel. The Super Seal was outrageously quick and no doubt the 275 isn't too shabby either.

 

[roblpm]

A side point, but I sailed the Super Seal (predecessor of the OPs Parker 275) on CHS and later IRC for a few seasons and the only problem we had was running out of space for trophies.

The Super Seal's lifting keel was unballasted whereas in the OP's updated version some of the ballast was moved to the keel. The Super Seal was outrageously quick and no doubt the 275 isn't too shabby either.

Boat is fast. Shame about the skipper and the crew......

It is easy to drive it fast on a reach or downwind. We haven't quite cracked the upwind speed yet. Only been racing two seasons. Most of the rest of the fleet seem to have about 20 seasons.......

 

[mrming]

Boat is fast. Shame about the skipper and the crew......

It is easy to drive it fast on a reach or downwind. We haven't quite cracked the upwind speed yet. Only been racing two seasons. Most of the rest of the fleet seem to have about 20 seasons.......

You need a great main trimmer. Boat needs to be kept on it's toes upwind. Doesn't hurt to have 2 or 3 bods on the rail either.

 

[Mrnotming]

A great boat "whisper(er)" missed a great bargain the last time she changed hands! Mind you she was in eBay shape!

 

[Birdseye]

Until last year we used to race in anything. And because " if he goes out, I cant be a wimp and not go" this did end up with some boats going out in conditions that lead to an early retirement. In one race we were the last boat standing having gone out in a forecast 9 which turned out to be a steady 40/45 gusting 50. It wasnt a lot of fun but no damage done.

I dont know the sequence of events but we suddenly found ourselves with a 30kn limit and safety scrutineering of boats ( flares in date etc) all as advised by the RYA. Possibly to do with our ending up in court over a safety boat accident with the dinghy fleet but I dont know that.

So whilst some winter races used to be called off for lack of wind, they are now much more frequently called off for excess wind. And the SI still talk of it being the skippers decision to race as indeed it must be.

I would prefer to go back to the old system. We have to lock out to race which means that the 30kn decision is taken before we get out there and see the real conditions. Often they are less than 30kn. But I guess that in the land of the no win no fee lawyer, you have to cover your backside.

 

[roblpm]

Until last year we used to race in anything. And because " if he goes out, I cant be a wimp and not go" this did end up with some boats going out in conditions that lead to an early retirement. In one race we were the last boat standing having gone out in a forecast 9 which turned out to be a steady 40/45 gusting 50. It wasnt a lot of fun but no damage done.

I dont know the sequence of events but we suddenly found ourselves with a 30kn limit and safety scrutineering of boats ( flares in date etc) all as advised by the RYA. Possibly to do with our ending up in court over a safety boat accident with the dinghy fleet but I dont know that.

So whilst some winter races used to be called off for lack of wind, they are now much more frequently called off for excess wind. And the SI still talk of it being the skippers decision to race as indeed it must be.

I would prefer to go back to the old system. We have to lock out to race which means that the 30kn decision is taken before we get out there and see the real conditions. Often they are less than 30kn. But I guess that in the land of the no win no fee lawyer, you have to cover your backside.

I have suggested to the Sailing Secretary that the sis are amended. Ours clearly state that we will race in up to 35-40 knots. We clearly wont.......!

 

[mrming]

So whilst some winter races used to be called off for lack of wind, they are now much more frequently called off for excess wind. And the SI still talk of it being the skippers decision to race as indeed it must be.

I would prefer to go back to the old system. We have to lock out to race which means that the 30kn decision is taken before we get out there and see the real conditions. Often they are less than 30kn. But I guess that in the land of the no win no fee lawyer, you have to cover your backside.

As far as I understand it, the legal issues arise when you provide safety boat cover (as in dinghies). The race organisers are then exposed to accusations of safety boats not responding quickly enough etc.

When it comes to cruiser racing with no safety boat cover, I think if the SIs are clear that all responsibility for the crew & boat's safety lies with the skipper, then is much less chance of a competitor blaming the organisers in the event of a problem caused by their lack of ability to deal with conditions they chose to race in.

Perhaps someone with more legal / race org expertise could chime in and give an opinion on this?