Wind Farms, Yes or No?

[contessa26]

No.

Just a money generator for investors. Unit price way, way too high, yet investors make pocket-fulls of dosh.

Like the next person, I’m all for saving the planet. And like a layman on the subject, we drive past a windfarm, seeing turbines rotating, and say – “Hey, look there, that must be free energy! It’s the wind!”

But have a well meaning public, and the government, been duped by the commercial wind industry? I don’t know! (Except that I know I’m always being duped!)

And are we actually saving the environment by inappropriately placing windfarms in areas of natural rural beauty?

Are windfarms are a waste of taxpayer’s money (basically in the massive subsidises, of various forms), that just make a few people rich, to little other benefit? (Some independent landowners can get up to £10K per turbine, per year). Some say, if only all these costly government grants could be diverted to finding more efficient power sources; reductions in black carbon; and ways of saving energy.

Obviously, they produce no power when there is no wind. Thus base load of conventional power stations have to be kept on line. On shore, they need very deep concrete bases; but ironically concrete is very ‘power-hungry’ to make. The concrete bases and access roads to build them will remain a lasting legacy for centuries, long after the turbine's 25 yr life span, and removal – if they even last that long, what with main bearing replacements, maintenance and spiralling future insurance costs. As someone pointed out, windfarms are not very efficient. If you think they're good, surely they shouldn’t be positioned in rural areas, but close to cities in urban areas where transmission line problems are much minimised and the area already industrialised. But I don’t know.

Happy sailing.

 

[Mudplugger]

No, No, No,! All new build developments, Blocks of flats, Factories, Offices etc, should each have their own individual windmills, should be an integral part of the planning process......Would at least stop them bu##ering up the landscape, and probably ensure that the quality of build was significantly improved!

 

[Fire99]

Honestly? I Don't know.
I like the concept. And in principal and in the right volumes in the right locations I think wind energy is a great idea. That along with tidal energy, solar energy etc.

However, the reason I don't know with these windfarms popping up all over the place is that it's politically driven and I don't trust a single word that comes out of our Government's mouths'.

The whole 'Climate Change' (which was once called 'Global Warming' until that sat on shakey ground) debate has far too many facets to it. How much of the world's CO2 is actually human produced, I hear is about 2% and with China's entire environmental agreement being 'less Carbon Intensity' which means they're still gonna be building coal-powered power stations all over the shop but will be making them with less CO2 pumping out of em than in 2005!!, I feel we are merely just impressing the other 'suits' sitting around the European Table but with no actual effect on the environment.

Also this CO2 propoganda also helps the Government push ahead with Nuclear energy since it's low on CO2 emmissions so Joe-Public will believe it's the lesser evil to 'Save our Planet'.
Let's just forget that they have the potential to destroy the world with a few Nuclear Accidents.
That also leads onto the point that if we're gonna get a whole load of Nuclear Power stations anyway then why don't we just scrap the whole windfarm scheme and just turn up the output of one of the Nuclear sites from say 6 to 7 on the big button and hey presto it's saved a whole lot of building of windmills.

I personally dont buy the whole CO2/Climate Change propoganda in the way it's being fed to us and regardless of the true burried facts of the matter, I don't for one second believe our little troup of windfarms is gonna make the slightest bit of difference to it.

 

[oldsaltoz]

There are a number of Wind Farm cases well documented regarding the output of a low humming like vibration that is carried some distance, this makes it very difficult to sleep for those close to wind farms.

There is a reading set down that they must keep below but few have managed this when all units are running in good conditions.

This may lead to limited numbers and distances from habitation in the future.

I, like many others have yet to be convinced wind farms are an answer, and wind farms at sea are a disaster.

 

[ccscott49]

I dont like them they are a blot on the landscape. They will never produce enough leccy to even offset what it cost in CO2, to make them and thats not including having to maintain them. Think about how they will maintain them offshore?? With a damn big offshore jackup barge/ship, the same one who built/installed them, vaste amounts of energy and money. But they are a very visible sign, that your good old government is trying to do something, it's all bloody eyewash.
Tidal barrages and tidal turbines are a different matter, you cant see those, but has enough study been done to ascertain the changes in tidal flow and what it will do to sand movement on our coasts? No work/study was done about the coastal erosion problems and we just made it worse.
We should have built nuclear years ago. OK I am fully aware of the problems, but we need to do something now and it's just not happening, do you think the western world or the emerging nations are going to put up with half the energy we use now? No I didnt think so, saving energy is better than those damn wind generators and we can do that easily, without using too much energy. We wouldnt need them if we would just turn things off, turn down the thermostats and put a pullover on.
I know people who have the central heating going full blast and then open a window to control the temperature, how bloody stupid is that and these are not rich people either.
I work in the energy business and I know the oil will not run out, not for many, many years yet, but it will get more and more expensive!
We need to do something now and I dont mean this for MMGW, just so we can sustain our lifestyles and conserve what energy we have left. Until we have other, non fossil, ways of generating electricity.

 

[ccscott49]

I am reserving judgement until someone can tell me how long it takes for a wind turbine to repay the energy cost of building (and dismantling).

I can tell you that easily, Never!

 

[TiggerToo]

Peeps thoughts? Discuss?
Stu

I like them. I would imagine off-shore ones are likely to be more effective in the long run.

Problems with reliability? Does anyone remember what the first combustion engine driven cares were like? And how about phones, with lovely ladies "manning" the switchboards? and computers which stored data on perforated bits of card?.... these things will never take on.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I like them. Ashore I find them elegant. Offshore I find them strangely reassuring.

OTOH, we may well be backing the wrong horse and I suspect in-flow tidal and river turbines would have been a better pony to punt on.

 

[Kilter]

I like them too

 

[stav]

Sustainable natural energies are all about amounts of energy per given area. For tidal there are a handful of places with sufficiently strong tidal flows to make it worthwhile, 1 in Ireland a couple in the Channel Islands and one or two others I think. Soalr is good if you move to the deserts and there is enough energy hitting the african deserts to easily power europe.

Ultimately we must use less not just us using it but be more aware of how it is used in the things we buy. Houses, cars, boats, paper etc. We need to appreciate things like the huge amount of energy used to make a car and realise how appalling the scrapage scheme is from an environmental point of view and ultimately break dow the Qdos attahced to own certain types of car. I hate the smart car but it is step in the right direction, especially if you look at the fact it can be maintinaed and the factory is better environmetally than a lot of others. So when my old volvo finally dies in a few years time it could well be a smart car.


Our buildings must last longer, commercial buildings should not be allowed to written of in tax over 25 years (not sure about that fact) and be made to last longer 100 yrs plus. And our domestic buildings are appalling!
So much could be done to make our world better with only a slight loss of productive, offices should have showers and gyms, products must be returned to the maker for disassembly etc.

I will stop now! Sorry.
I think this gives a flavour of my thoughts.

Happy sailing

 

[boatmike]

Don't see why we need 'em. Plenty of plutonium up at Sellafield.




The British Pugwash Group ????

Actually, I agree entirely. The decision to effectively drop Nuclear (which Britain pioneered) and build more fossil fuel based stations based on North Sea gas was the worst decision politicians ever made. Not only would we be totally independant of others for energy by now if we had gone ahead, but the fuel for thousands of years could be reprocessed and used rather than buried and forgotten. Wind just can't ever supply any more than a small fraction of our needs.

 

[fergie_mac66]

So when my old volvo finally dies in a few years time it could well be a smart car


Happy sailing

IT seems to me some people need a big volvo estate for work or big family but they could build one to suit the person who doesn't need high speed for local town driving and occasional motorway
for example volvo estate 1200cc lean burn engine gear for max speed 70 mph but optimum speed 30 40 mph It should be easy for good engineers dont know whether its poss but it would save on fuel and manufacturing material

 

[electrosys]

I'm just waiting for a decent-sized freighter to lose it's engines and start drifting in a winterly gale either in the North Sea or Thames Estuary. Should take a few out of service.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I dont like them they are a blot on the landscape. They will never produce enough leccy to even offset what it cost in CO2, to make them and thats not including having to maintain them.

The average wind turbine produces the energy that was required to make it in around eight months.

 

[Fire99]

Sustainable natural energies are all about amounts of energy per given area. For tidal there are a handful of places with sufficiently strong tidal flows to make it worthwhile, 1 in Ireland a couple in the Channel Islands and one or two others I think. Soalr is good if you move to the deserts and there is enough energy hitting the african deserts to easily power europe.

Ultimately we must use less not just us using it but be more aware of how it is used in the things we buy. Houses, cars, boats, paper etc. We need to appreciate things like the huge amount of energy used to make a car and realise how appalling the scrapage scheme is from an environmental point of view and ultimately break dow the Qdos attahced to own certain types of car. I hate the smart car but it is step in the right direction, especially if you look at the fact it can be maintinaed and the factory is better environmetally than a lot of others. So when my old volvo finally dies in a few years time it could well be a smart car.


Our buildings must last longer, commercial buildings should not be allowed to written of in tax over 25 years (not sure about that fact) and be made to last longer 100 yrs plus. And our domestic buildings are appalling!
So much could be done to make our world better with only a slight loss of productive, offices should have showers and gyms, products must be returned to the maker for disassembly etc.

I will stop now! Sorry.
I think this gives a flavour of my thoughts.

Happy sailing

All very interesting stuff and I agree with much of it.

However, there are a few fundamental issues which 'piss on the parade' somewhat.

Firstly, we live on a single planet that isn't divided into self supporting segments. It's all well and good the UK driving around in little electric cars, putting up windmills etc etc but if the likes of China are putting up power stations at a rate that would make Ivor the Engine proud then in the terms of the environment, our actions are pretty pointless.

Also, all i've seen so far regarding green issues in the UK is that everyone pretty much lives the same but is just charged more. In the name of the environment.
I'd wager the average UK person is currently just trying to put food on the table and get by from day to day. Just smacking our backsides in the name of the environment, when the above is going on, is pointless.

One last point. If 'saving the environment' is so important then why is rail & bus travel continually raking up in cost and forcing people to use their cars??

The environment is the environment and either needs protecting or it doesn't. Not just in nicey-looking schemes when at the backend no changes are going on.

 

[PeterGibbs]

Windmills and Don Quihoto ....

Peeps thoughts? Discuss?
Stu

Anyone considering the cost of installing AND maintaining wind farms, especailly at sea, will recognise the stupidity (not the wrong word) of investing in this Green Party-lead initiative.
These are the facts - the rest is emotion and rhetoric.

Windmills are a sop to the masses and have nothing to offer the very needy cause of abating climate change, at a cost we should afford.

Other countries that were shanghied into installing wind farms earlier see a significant portion of their capacity lying unmaintained and unused. Journey round Holland and Denmark and note the situation. The same will shortly emerge in the UK. Farms at sea will be even worse maintained.

The future of engery suppies in the UK is a major concern, with the government talking the talk but walking the election walk. Feeble is an overstatement. Projecting forward from the current supply position will leave UK importing an ever growing portion of energy from the continent - to add to all the other goods and services that we should and could be supplying here, but don't.

Did I read that emigration has reached a new height? Does this tell us something?

And now a hung parliament is in sight? Wonderful....

PWG

 

[Sybarite]

Try putting a large fan in front of the windmill.

John

 

[fergie_mac66]

Anyone considering the cost of installing AND maintaining wind farms, especailly at sea, will recognise the stupidity (not the wrong word) of investing in this Green Party-lead initiative.
These are the facts - the rest is emotion and rhetoric.

Windmills are a sop to the masses and have nothing to offer the very needy cause of abating climate change, at a cost we should afford.

Other countries that were shanghied into installing wind farms earlier see a significant portion of their capacity lying unmaintained and unused. Journey round Holland and Denmark and note the situation. The same will shortly emerge in the UK. Farms at sea will be even worse maintained.

The future of engery suppies in the UK is a major concern, with the government talking the talk but walking the election walk. Feeble is an overstatement. Projecting forward from the current supply position will leave UK importing an ever growing portion of energy from the continent - to add to all the other goods and services that we should and could be supplying here, but don't.

Did I read that emigration has reached a new height? Does this tell us something?

And now a hung parliament is in sight? Wonderful....

PWG

totally agree.
Just thougt tho they could replace sunk beacon in thames estuary no need to connect it up tho
Infact no need to put the sails on either

 

[Searush]

I have already said I like them - from an aesthetic perspective. They enhace the view, I find the slow, lazy rotation of the blades is relaxing & pleasant to watch on land or at sea. But I completely agree that they are not efficient or cost effective (yet?) & power is only available at certain wind speeds (too much is as bad as too little), rather than linked to demand.

I also like the idea of tidal generation & there are many locations around the Lleyn Peninsula, Anglesey & the Mersey where tidal generation is currently under consideration. With 11m tides & many headlands & restricted channels the Irish sea has quite a few possible tide generation options. See the link below for Ebb & Flow tide maps of Irish Sea. Plenty of choice for good sites there.

Tidal strength maps of Irish Sea

It simply makes good sense to me that we should aim to use renewable energy sources in preference to a finite & irreplaceable fossil fuel stock. Current generation (sorry) devices may not be good enough, but technology keeps improving.

 

[Lakesailor]

Don't see why we need 'em. Plenty of plutonium up at Sellafield.

The British Pugwash Group ????

See my earlier thread




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