Wind and mains.... my regulators are arguing!

Hi William,

Your simplistic analysis is more techy than mine but is pretty much what I imagined.

I should may be clarify that the cheaper of the rutland regulators is not the one that is detailed on the Marlec home page. So those who are assuming it is a shunt type may be wrong? What other types are there?


This is the one I have.
wind.h2.jpg


"12 or 24V. The PWM electronic charge regulator tapers charge to the battery to limit current and avoid battery overcharge. When regulating the Windcharger speed is reduced. Built in blocking diode protects HRS HRS unit for single battery bank LED indication of charging, regulating battery voltage."


I have also just had this back from Marlec.
"The problems you describe should not happen if the mains charger and HRS regulator are connected to the battery in parallel with each other. If wired correctly each unit will do it's own thing without interfering with the other. There must be something about your wiring that is putting the HRS and Mains Charger in series.

I don't know what the "Always On Module" is but I would be wiring the HRS positive and negative direct to the battery and the same with the Mains Charger positive and negative. Check also that the red wire on the HRS is connected to the battery and the brown wire to the windcharger"


So I guess I need to check my wiring and the mains charger functionality. However I still can't help thinking that what William has described sounds likely.


Jim
 
Why have you run the battery charger current through the Rutland module????

One of your suppliers says that the charger and module should be connected to the battery in parallel so this means that the charger is connected to the battery in parallel with the modul and not in parallel with the Rutland.
 
You'll need to expand on that a little for me.... I have said I am electricery challenged. The wiring at the moment is as per the instructions given buy the original system suppliers... that is to say all the bits that are neatly printed on my schematic.

Whilst the rutland and it's regulator were not supplied by the original supplier I had previously discussed their connection with them.

I would have thought that I have the mains and the rutland regulator in parallel with the neg bus bar and always on bus bar at the moment?

[ QUOTE ]


Why have you run the battery charger current through the Rutland module????

One of your suppliers says that the charger and module should be connected to the battery in parallel so this means that the charger is connected to the battery in parallel with the modul and not in parallel with the Rutland.

[/ QUOTE ]
 
Does that have three connections? If so one should be connected only to the wind generator and the other two across the battery +ve and -ve.

From the description given it sounds as if it is NOT just a simple shunt regulator so it shouldn't be trying to regulate the charger if (a) it is correctly wired and (b) it is working properly.
 
There seems to be a distinct possibility that the Rutland regulator is faulty (a blown diode).

The first test should be to disconnect the Rutland from the circuit (by disconnecting the output from the regulator from the +ve) and see if that modifies the behaviour. If so then try reconnecting and measuring the current (and direction) in the output of the regulator with the turbine stationary.
 
I'm not sure if the question about the "Always On Module" has been satisfactorily answered but here is my take on it:
It is a distribution block with circuit breakers designed to feed those items which should be "Always On". It would be wired directly to the battery and feed items such as bilge pump, stereo radio memory circuits etc. The CBs are push-button types so they cannot be switched off inadvertently. The exact model you posted is in the BEP catalogue (706-4W) but it may be made by another and re-badged. In any event, it has no smarts, just a separate distribution block.
However, in your system it seems to be just used as a CB protected method of connecting the Rutland and the shore charger +ves to the domestic battery bank.
Ray
 
Your description of the always on module is correct... under the cover it is just a copper strip... connected to +ve from that there are 4 push button breakers each then with it's own connection for what ever.... Both my rutland and mains charger have their feds fused so are connected to the battery side of the module rather than to one of the brakers. Mean while I do have bilge pump and navtex connected to breakers on the module.


Jim

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if the question about the "Always On Module" has been satisfactorily answered but here is my take on it:
It is a distribution block with circuit breakers designed to feed those items which should be "Always On". It would be wired directly to the battery and feed items such as bilge pump, stereo radio memory circuits etc. The CBs are push-button types so they cannot be switched off inadvertently. The exact model you posted is in the BEP catalogue (706-4W) but it may be made by another and re-badged. In any event, it has no smarts, just a separate distribution block.
However, in your system it seems to be just used as a CB protected method of connecting the Rutland and the shore charger +ves to the domestic battery bank.
Ray

[/ QUOTE ]
 
[ QUOTE ]
There seems to be a distinct possibility that the Rutland regulator is faulty (a blown diode).


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're probably spot on. I'm sure there would be a diode in the output to prevent exactly the problem jimbuoy is seeing. It has probably failed s/c. The only question will be if any further damage has been caused to the Rutland regulator. Unless the reg is still under warrantee, I would first try a suitable external diode in the Rutland output, and monitor to see if the regulator is still regulating properly.


Vic
 
It's certainly still under warentee.....


Question is would it just have failed or has something else about my system caused it to blow.

Forgive me asking what is probably another dumb question here.... but lets say we are on the right lines here and there should be a diode so that the juice can only flow the one way from the rutland genny? what would that diode be rated at? So lets say I have an alternator rated at 72amps and a domestic battery that it very low on charge. Would the diode in the rutland be up to the job? Not that i've had that situation since installing the rutland, just trying to understand how and why.


Jim

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There seems to be a distinct possibility that the Rutland regulator is faulty (a blown diode).


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're probably spot on. I'm sure there would be a diode in the output to prevent exactly the problem jimbuoy is seeing. It has probably failed s/c. The only question will be if any further damage has been caused to the Rutland regulator. Unless the reg is still under warrantee, I would first try a suitable external diode in the Rutland output, and monitor to see if the regulator is still regulating properly.


Vic

[/ QUOTE ]
 
The diode will be rated to carry the maximum output from the Rutland, irrespective of anything else in the circuit.

The current flowing from the Alternator/Battery Charger will not be flowing through the diode (assuming things are wired correctly) and so their current rating is immaterial to the rating of the diode.

I would not recommend an external diode as a permanent solution - the voltage drop across that would interfere with the regulation of the output from the Rutland.
 
There is no reason why a diode in the output of the Rutland should be damaged by anything else in your circuit (unless you did something really drastic like getting mains mixed up with the 12v circuit /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif ). It just has to have a current rating high enough for the max output from the Rutland, and an inverse voltage adequate for the highest voltage on the battery side. Almost any diode would have the later. Depending on the max output of the Rutland, the diode might need a heat sink.


Vic
 
You'll need to expand on that a little for me.... I have said I am electricery challenged. The wiring at the moment is as per the instructions given buy the original system suppliers... that is to say all the bits that are neatly printed on my schematic.

Whilst the rutland and it's regulator were not supplied by the original supplier I had previously discussed their connection with them.
Quote.
I would have thought that I have the mains and the rutland regulator in parallel with the neg bus bar and always on bus bar at the moment?

.........................................................................................

I think there may have been confusion during discussions and you DO NOT HAVE THE MAINS IN PARALLEL WITH THE RUTLAND REGULATOR it is IN SERIES according to your drawing....

My thoughts are that the Rutland unit is designed to shed the load of the Rutland which is no great deal and the amount of shedding depends what the regulator senses at the battery.

There fore if the charger is connected to the batteries in parallel with charger and regulator then the high voltage from the charger will be sensed and only the Rutland power has to be shed as the charger will have turned down the charger based on voltage sensing.

However if the charger and the Rutland are fed into the regulator in series as your drawing shows then this poor device is being asked to shed more than designed and also the charger may at the same time be turning the wick up.......FIRE FIRE FIRE !!!!!!!!!!!

Me thinks this is a no no...:) I would certainly question putting the charging current from a regulated charger into another independant regulator . Sounds wrong .


Your drawing is not as you say.....which is right???????

---------------------
 
it'a wired as per the diagram but I am now confused as to why this means they are not in parallel?

My terminology is no doubt poor but they are not in a loop.... series....

Can you explain why they are in series and perhaps where you would connect them to put them in parallel.


Jim


[ QUOTE ]


You'll need to expand on that a little for me.... I have said I am electricery challenged. The wiring at the moment is as per the instructions given buy the original system suppliers... that is to say all the bits that are neatly printed on my schematic.

Whilst the rutland and it's regulator were not supplied by the original supplier I had previously discussed their connection with them.
Quote.
I would have thought that I have the mains and the rutland regulator in parallel with the neg bus bar and always on bus bar at the moment?

.........................................................................................

I think there may have been confusion during discussions and you DO NOT HAVE THE MAINS IN PARALLEL WITH THE RUTLAND REGULATOR it is IN SERIES according to your drawing....

My thoughts are that the Rutland unit is designed to shed the load of the Rutland which is no great deal and the amount of shedding depends what the regulator senses at the battery.

There fore if the charger is connected to the batteries in parallel with charger and regulator then the high voltage from the charger will be sensed and only the Rutland power has to be shed as the charger will have turned down the charger based on voltage sensing.

However if the charger and the Rutland are fed into the regulator in series as your drawing shows then this poor device is being asked to shed more than designed and also the charger may at the same time be turning the wick up.......FIRE FIRE FIRE !!!!!!!!!!!

Me thinks this is a no no...:) I would certainly question putting the charging current from a regulated charger into another independant regulator . Sounds wrong .


Your drawing is not as you say.....which is right???????

---------------------

[/ QUOTE ]
 
>>>>>
I think there may have been confusion during discussions and you DO NOT HAVE THE MAINS IN PARALLEL WITH THE RUTLAND REGULATOR it is IN SERIES according to your drawing....
<<<<<



How did you come up with that from the schematic?. I agree there is a blob where there is presumably supposed to be a crossover, but even so I can't see how you reached your conclusion? Are you taking the....,,,,, parallel??

Vic
 
Not takin the P at all.... probably just thick.

I really need to draw and scan another piccy.

But as i understand it...if I had a battery an two bulbs each bulb with two cables from it... if i took the two plus cables to plus on the battery and the two negs to neg on the battery... that would be in para? If I connected plus from one bulb to plus on the battery ... neg from the second buld to neg and joined the two free wires that would be series. Ok that's an example. But I have +ve and -ve from each charging source connected to the same bus bars... neg and always on respectively.

The blobs are crossovers... the cables are only joined at their ends.

Now if I am wrong in regarding this as being in parallel fine but please can some one explain why and where/how to connect inorder to get it right.

I sent the same schematic to rutland and got the brief reply back.

Jim

[ QUOTE ]
>>>>>
I think there may have been confusion during discussions and you DO NOT HAVE THE MAINS IN PARALLEL WITH THE RUTLAND REGULATOR it is IN SERIES according to your drawing....
<<<<<



How did you come up with that from the schematic?. I agree there is a blob where there is presumably supposed to be a crossover, but even so I can't see how you reached your conclusion? Are you taking the....,,,,, parallel??

Vic

[/ QUOTE ]
 
On the basis that the blob near the crease in the page is a "jump over" rather than a connection (and if a connection, it is a connection to 0V, which no-one would expect to allow the mains charger to work correctly...), then your circuit diagram looks entirely reasonable.

And in fact, *IF* the Rutland regulator is a simple shunt regulator (without any provision to be connected in parallel to any other charging source), then the behaviour you describe is very much what you would expect it to be.

So the big question is - does the Rutland regulator have any provision to work with other parallel connected chargers? (the suggestion from their support that you are somehow series connected, means that you have successfully contacted their tea-boy, rather than a technician... either that, or he isn't really engaged with the problem.)

I would have to say though, that if the regulator *was* a simple shunt connected device, then there is really only a need for *two* wires - not three, so the presence of three wires suggests something more...

The statement "Built in blocking diode protects HRS HRS unit for single battery bank LED indication of charging, regulating battery voltage." isn't even a proper sentence, so it is difficult to really understand it, but it does suggest that there are measures included to accomodate separate chargers...

Basically, you need to go back to Rutland, and get them to give you clearer guidance or diagnosis....
 
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