Wind and mains.... my regulators are arguing!

J

jimbouy

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Sailing.. Solent. Home..Bucks
www.bluemoonlight.co.uk
I have a niggling problem with my various charging methods...

Here's a schematic of my set up.

wiring0001.jpg


The problem is this...

When I plug in to shore power my all in one shore power unit (Dolphin) never gets to reach its float charge stage as the Rutland windy regulator starts regulating and thus the mains unit always puts in 3 amps.

Second interesting thing I noticed is that, even with the mains not connected, if the windy is pushing out enough amps the cooling fan on the mains charger kicks in.


I currently (poor joke) have the cheaper of the Rutland regulars with out a stop switch...

It's been suggested that I need switches so I can switch between the two charging systems etc...

Problems I can see with that are...

I have no stop switch for the Rutland and the Rutland should not be allowed to spin with out a load. Tying off is a feat of gymnastics altho I do need to devise a method of doing that.

Blocking diodes in various places also have been suggested.

This can't be an unusual set up so .... any ideas guys?
 
Hook the windmill up to the mains, and watch your meter go backwards.

Then ask the Marina for a rebate /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: Wind and mains.... my regulators are arguing!

Have you tried moving the mains charger output to the engine battery ? this will prove if it's working correctly.
If the Rutland regulator voltage is set below the intial mains charger voltage, then the charger should over ride the Rutland regulator, as it's a higher voltage. If you are getting charge from the Rutland, it's sounds a bit like a mains charger problem.

What is the mains charger output amperage, and volt settings, what voltage is the Rutland regulator, what are you actually getting.

Brian
 
Re: Wind and mains.... my regulators are arguing!

Jim,

Not quite sure what your ‘always on module’ is, but it might be the culprit here. It appears as if it ought to switch from wind to shore power when available.

I took a quick look at Rutland regulators on the Internet, it seems they are ‘shunt’ thus on over-voltage they ‘short-circuit’ any excess output from the windy as needed, this is fine but if you add 3-stage shore-power charging, likely you will encounter the problems you have, unless the various charging systems are decoupled from each other.

The mains charger will be trying to push the batteries up to 14.5v (dependant on temperature) for around four hours, before dropping to the float level of 13.6 forever more. The Rutland regulator will certainly not allow that voltage for long periods.

I would check what the ‘always on’ module is supposed to do and confirm that it is doing it correctly?

As far as stopping the Rutland, I’d be inclined to add a diode between it and the batteries then a simple (but fairly beefy) switch to short-circuit it will be enough to keep it quiet when not required. Or better; if you have a hot water tank, dump the power into a big resistor clamped to the bottom of it.

Cheers, CRB

pm me, with tel no if you wish I'm also in Bucks at present
 
Re: Wind and mains.... my regulators are arguing!

Now this is where I start to show my lack of electricery knowledge.

The Mains charger is two channel and already has a connection to the engine battery as well... Are you suggesting just trying the domestic connection on the engine battery for testing purposes? Then if it never goes in to float mode I know the charger is at fault? ( I can see the logic in this)


In terms of the volts and amps settings of both the rutland regulator and my mains charger (a dolphin all in one) i'd have to check the spec sheets and see what they say... if indeed they have that kind of info.


Jim
 
Re: Wind and mains.... my regulators are arguing!

The always on module is just a fancy name for the always on bus bar... and it does what it says on the tin!

The diode option was suggested to me at the weekend as well....so we could be on to something here?

I would not be against just moving the output from the mains charger direct to the battery... this would stop it showing on my battery monitor but would not be a problem.

However, I think this would make little difference as the always on is just a bus bar effectively on th end of a short length of battery cable.

Jim
 
Re: Wind and mains.... my regulators are arguing!

[ QUOTE ]
The always on module is just a fancy name for the always on bus bar... and it does what it says on the tin!



[/ QUOTE ]

I too am puzzled just what this 'always on module' is. If it is 'just a bussbar' then why is it shown differently to the other normal bassbars on the schematic? I suspect that it may possibly be a twin diode isolator, but if that is the case you should not be seeing the effects you are (unless it has failed short-circuit). Do you have any more info on it (makers name, P/N, etc).

Vic
 
I suspect that this has not been installed in accordance with the Rutland recommendations, and you simply need to follow their advice (Rutland are reliable people).
 
Yes, that is of course a broad and true statement.

The instructions supplied with show it connected straight to the battery. I have yet to try a straight to battery connection. However, it does not seem unreasonable to want to be able to see what is happending via the battery monitor. (I am not often on shore power so amps in and out are very useful)

At the same time as posting here I emailed them and the reply is that they think it should work with the set up I have shown in my wiring diagram.

I will of course be checking that I really have wired it up as shown and will try connecting it straight to the battery....


Jim
 
I see that ‘Halcyon' is probably far more qualified than I am on this subject!

As he suggests, disconnect the domestic battery circuit and check that the charger is not at fault first, by allowing it to run its full cycle into the engine battery alone, which seems to be isolated from the Rutland circuitry.

Are you sure that the batteries are still good? Tie off the Rutland, pull the shore-power plug and after an hour or so check that both battery sets are around 12.6v, anything lower; or a significant difference between them, implies a possible dead cell which may be the cause of your charging problems.

The ‘Dolphin’ appears to be a 4-stage charger, boosting at 14.4v and floating at 13.6v I would guess that the Rutland ‘Shunt’ regulator (or possibly even the internal regulator of the engine alternator) may not like this ‘boost/absorption’ stage voltage level, however I don’t see a regulator on the diagram, do you know if this is included in the box marked Rutland?

CRB
 
That shouldn't be a problem. Your BEP has the shunt in the -ve and the -ve of all monitored loads and chargers are connected to the non-battery side of the shunt. Remember the shunt has such a tiny resistance it can be neglected for all system purposes.

So yes, take the Rutland direct to the house batteries but connect to the shunt -ve not the actual battery -ve. You don't really need to charge the start battery? If you do, i.e. if it is part of your cruising capacity, then you're better off shorting the batteries together most of the time.
 
Ok. So you are saying to take the neg from the Rutland regulator off the negative bus bar and connect it to the shunt? and even tho this is just "by passing" the cable marked 19 it may or will solve the problem?


Not doubting you just that I am electrically challenged!

Thanks



Jim
 
No

Firstly, I suggest you wire it how Rutland tell you to.

Now, if Rutland say connect it straight across the battery (knowing that there is a charger across the battery and an alternator, already) then:-

Remove the Rutland positive from the Always On Module and connect it to the battery terminal 15/10 via any fuse that Rutland suggest.

If the cable (19) from the busbar to the shunt is very short and is in good condition then you can leave the Rutland negative connected to the bus bar. If in doubt, move the Rutland negative to the non-battery side of the shunt.

Now it will be wired exactly as Rutland suggest. If it still doesn't work, call Rutland as it is probably a problem with their kit. Of course you could ask Rutland first, but they will probably tell you to wire it as they suggest first, anyway.

Note: There might be several different wiring suggestions from Rutland. Look at them all and choose the one that suits. Your application is bog-standard, the only odd thing is this Always On Module and only because none of us knows exactly what is inside it!
 
In that case I would email your circuit and comments (your original post) to either Rutland's support dept. or the tech support dept of the dealer who sold it and get them to confirm your proposed action.

This might seem to be going against the spirit of getting advice from the board but please note that the Rutland is a shunt regulator and could cause big problems if not properly installed. Also, as you have pointed out, the Rutland needs to see a continuous load itself.

It needs specialist knowledge. If they don't show your application you need to find their suggested wiring for yours. Is it not available on their website? A wind gen + a mains charger is the basic system for most yachts today.
 
I would endorse those who say you should talk to the Rutland people.

Otherwise a simple solution would be to fit some arrangement to ensure that the Rutland and the Mains Charger are not simultaneously connected - for example a manual change over switch or a relay.

You could use blocking diodes but that would probably not be a good idea as the associated voltage drop would mess up the battery charging
 
Several posters have mentioned that the Rutland regulator is a shunt type. This means that if the voltage of the gen which is also the voltage of the battery rises above the regulated voltage 14volts then current starts to flow through a transistor and or resistor. So it can never rise above 14 volts.

Now simplistically if you push volts /current from a mains charger into the battery then the Rutland reg will not discern that the excess voltage is coming from the charger it will simply try to absorb (bypass) enough current to limit the battery voltage to 14v. The outcome is that the Rutland reg is getting hot soaking up the charger power.

Now the charger works on a plan where it charges at well over 14 .5 volts (actually trying to get the battery up to 14.5 or more so when it gets the battery to 14.5 it senses enough and reduces the voltage to that of trickle /maintenance charge.

if your Rutland reg manages to soak up the power so the battery voltage never gets up to 14.5 then it will continue on the bulk charge rate.
Now I may be confused about what your charger does but you can see that the Rutland shunt regulator is going to confuse the charger.
(it looks like a half charged battery)
As I see it you should disconnect the Rutland when the charger is on.
Now Rutland say don't disconnect the wind gen. Read the notes and even ask them but I would suggest that if the reg is connected to the Rutland it should come to no harm without a load. Or if all else fails get a 12v 20watt lamp to connect to the Rutland. olewill
 
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