vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Where is this information to be found?
will you lose right to NHS treatment if you leave the UK?
- Thread starter sunsailor
- Start date
Where is this information to be found?
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
Mr Farage's selective quote about benefit tourism? - which makes it a fact, of course. Though he did leave out another fact - that the total cohort of immigrants bring in far more income through taxation than benefits claimed.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
In the NHS (and I am what many would call a bureaucrat) so have dealt with the issue when trying to save money - the Jeremy Hunt figure of £12m a year felt right (£33m foreign fees owed, £21m recovered), so about £1 in £12,000 the NHS spends ( http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/jul/03/health-tourism-cost-nhs-jeremy-hunt )
And from my own experience at different NHS hospitals the £21m recovered will almost all be UK expats returning for babies or orthopaedic operations without becoming resident here again - which would have been simple for them to do. So for me chasing the "health tourists" is a big effort to get money from the wrong people and a distraction from saving far bigger sums of money spent wastefully on other things.
But for largely political purposes an audit based on all sorts of spurious things has inflated this to £1.5bn, or £1.50 in every £100 pounds which if true would be a very small percentage to get savings out of, but big enough to be worth it.
Alas you can't track down patients based on the daft big estimates as they are all approximations, not based on actual data - e.g. estimating the number of people born abroad in a catchment area and then guessing a certain percentage have relatives who are living with them but not entitled to treatment yet. If they have a GP and a UK address then that's it.
But it is so, so convenient to believe that making savings out of a tiny percentage of NHS income (even at the daft £1.5bn estimate) will solve our problems compared to the £35bn on drugs costs, or the overall expenditure of 80% of NHS costs now on medicalising the last 2 years of an elderly persons life, with little benefit and not much dignity.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The wild guesses bandied around by politicians and journalists are always lacking in substance as they usually include their guesses not only of the probably small number of people who use the NHS when they are not entitled to (including those who declare but do not pay) but also include (a la Farage) those who are entitled but the writer/quoter does not consider should be. For many like the Daily Mail it also allows the display of certain prejudices and and allows them to beat up incompetent public servants. What is there not to like?
Depends on whoms statistics, the office of Fiscal Responsibility figures which include all the costs incurred, and they are many, show that they do not benefit the economy but are a further cost.
It's a leftish trend to deny uncomfortable facts, still in denial about the way they took us to the brink of bankruptcy, as every left socialist administration has in the past, left behind the highest deficit in history, and a note in the treasury admitting no money left.
They, the left liberals blame anyone, even attribute others opinions in previous post, to the poor old Daily Mail! quite what they have to do with it is unclear, but the absolutes of uncontrolled immigration initiated by the left, now admitted for political purposes, has created enormous challenges in all areas, housing, health services, education, with some schools dealing with 30 different languages, and without bye your leave, without the permission of the British people, did anyone ask any here their permission? Just a few more facts for the left to deny, or perhaps blame me for.
Unfortunately we are well and truly saddled with an NHS which increasingly demands larger and larger sums of money, to provide a service second to non, but which is becoming unsustainable in its present form, which no politition is seemingly prepared to admit to, certainly publicly.
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
So, your beef is political and sounds like you do not approve of people having access to the NHS even though they are entitled to, rather than those who are not entitled who do not pay their bills.
This is indeed a problem for our politicians to deal with, but unsurprisingly there is no simple answer (despite what Mr F would have you believe). The situation in this country is little different from that in most European countries - who do you think is picking up the bill for all the migrants entering Italy and Greece at the moment? and is an issue over which national politicians have very little control.
As RupertW points out above, even the wild guesses about the cost of providing healthcare to those unfortunate people, that you seem to disapprove of, who need it is a tiny fraction of the overall cost, and dwarfed by the real issue long term in the NHS which is the cost of end of life care for the growing elderly population.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
Our GP is aware that we spend more time out of the country than in and he couldn't care less, says he has no instructions to cross people off. We do however have a house here, pay UK tax etc. Funnily enough, I get far quicker treatment in Portugal using my EHIC. Had been waiting in Wales for endoscopy, still no appt after 3 months. Saw doctor in Faro on a Monday, had it done on the Wednesday. Cost 80 euro, which I reclaimed from UK health service on my return.
It is amazing you arrive at such a conclusion, nowhere have I indicated I disapprove of treatment on the NHS!!! I have contributed to it all my life, with little use personally, but delighted others needs (contributors needs) are well looked after.
So please no more 'sounds like' interpretations.
I STRONGLY object to non contributors abusing the NHS, regardless of who they are.
Would you be concerned if your car or boat insurance company paid out to others who claimed on your contribution paid policy? because they were in 'need'
Hope I have made myself clear without the need for interpretation, and if you think that £1.5m is pocket money, how many nurses would it pay for, or help for the elderly, in 5 years that's £7.5m on Nationals not Internationals.
Mr Farage, it was his turn on BBC1 to be interviewed by the Newsnight chap... would recommend it to you, I personally could not agree more with what he said, despite the best efforts of the interviewer to misrepresent UKIPs policies. You do not of course have to agree, but I would suggest to others to at least listen before committing themselves by voting for a Socialist nightmare controlled from Scotland.
Danbury
Well-Known Member
A few points here....
1. We have extended the definition of who is "entitled" to free NHS treatment... so the set of people who are definitely not entitled is now very very small
2. All you have to do to "entitle" yourself to free treatment is say that you now intend to live here permanently.
3. We could reduce the drugs bill by doing simple things like removing the financial incentives to GPs to prescribe drugs.
4. Quoting any figures from the Graudiad is highly suspect... ALL newspapers misquote figures to show what they want to show...
5. I am a firm believer in "if you look after the pennies, the pounds look after themselves"... so every penny counts !
6. If you go to an A&E in Ireland... it's empty ! Reason: they charge a fee. Maybe we should do the same ? Billions saved !!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The idea that the NHS (or its equivalent in other EU countries as well as others in other parts of the world) can be " national" is just not sustainable. It is simply a political slogan. Firstly the NHS (unlike your car and boat insurance example) is not a contributory scheme, it is financed out of general taxation. If it were not, then the political rhetoric would be telling us that we need to up our "contributions" if we want more money spent on it. However as we all know, politicians currying favour promise more of our tax to be spent on this than on other things (although they usually neglect to mention what things will get less), or they want to tax specific people (wealthy householders, or owners of high value houses for example) and transfer that money to more doctors, nurses etc.
You cannot turn the clock back. This is no longer "Little England" and you can't pull up the drawbridge and re-write the rules to give preference to a particular group of our residents. We are governed by international agreements to provide healthcare to a wide range of non British people - refugees, asylum seekers, citizens of other states with whom we have reciprocal agreements, students, visitors, plus of course a real moral obligation to provide help to people in desperate need.
If that means that a little bit of our taxes are spent on such things (and it is small in relation to total expenditure) then it is a small price to pay.
BTW, don't think there is a lack of listening to viewpoints similar to yours. They have dominated the discourse for the last 2 years, gaining huge media coverage. If there is a lack of positive action by the public at large to such views, perhaps it is because people are not persuaded by the arguments. May 7 might show more.
National insurance is the provider of health care plus general taxation, DC has given an undertaking not to raise it, EM hasnt, other loony lefties consider it fair game to pay for their spending spree's.
Yes we have agreements with others, but nothing that cannot be changed in the best interests of the UK, EU for example, ask the people for a change, polls suggest a majority wants out, oh, I haven't heard the 'little Englander' insult for a long time, aimed at those opposed to joining the euro, who have been proved so very right, the lib/left still think we should, in denial as usual.
Already explained why I do not agree with the 'small price to pay' neither does Canada, USA, Australia, new Zealand and many more, non will allow the level of health tourism and abuse we do.
Your correct about we shall see on the 7th. but the results do not reflect the level of feeling about these issues, whilst voting for labour, an enigma I know, maybe because it's traditional to do so in many areas, they to feel fed up with how the system is abused and used, but are not politically represented by their traditional, and im many cases unthinking choice of party.
NF is a political breath of fresh air, his performance this evening refreshingly open, honest, and in touch with what I hear people talking about, wherever I go, on a wide range of subjects. I to want my country back, I am, unlike the left, proud of our history, our traditions, built by men and women who were dependent only on themselves, who would hardly believe the supplicant, i am entitled society of today.
Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
When you start to travel you will discover that the NHS provides a service that is second to a great many others.....
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Very true. When we lived in Holland we thought their hospital service to be superb. The Dutch complained about it, though!
Oh dear, more assumptions, whilst I have not partaken in or had the need of other nations health services, I have always considered what the NHS provides, again mainly to others who were very pleased with treatment received, as first class, but I am delighted to know other nations have equally competent services.
My travel has been extensive both personal and career wise, to both the good and the evil of this world.
macd
Well-Known Member
I'm delighted to hear you're widely travelled, but would suggest one further trip: to The Lounge.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The link between healthcare (welfare in general) and NI contributions was lost a long time ago as NI is just another tax on both employers and employees.
Somewhat arrogant to suggest that other people are "unthinking" and incapable of making up their own minds on these matters. As for dear Nigel, when there is little chance of being able to actually do anything it is not difficult to express different views, just as Ms Bennett does on behalf of the Greens.
Don't quite follow your rambling last paragraph. I always thought that elections gave the opportunity for everybody to express their views and feelings, so why should the outcome of an election not reflect that?
I agree with macd, this is now a subject for the Lounge where I think you might find some soulmates.
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jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
Sorry, to all, it is rather a thread drift, but the lounge is not somewhere I frequent, but you are correct, will try to restrict posts here to more boaty subjects, and reserve my passion for my country to where appropriate.
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macd
Well-Known Member
Some of us did rather collude with the thread-drift. Thanks.