Aardee
Well-Known Member
Actually, the thread started as a plug for someone elses blog/ forum.
Turned into a great discussion though.
Turned into a great discussion though.
Will the marine world follow the 4x4 trend?
- Thread starter jprstoney
- Start date
Bergman
Well-Known Member
Give me a break
I've got a 4x4 people carrier
Not to mention a
broken motor cycles
sand bags
paving stones
dogs, cats etc
fence posts
mesh fencing
sails
boat upholstery
gearbox
step ladders
gas ovens
refrigerators
assorted chandlery
assorted schoolgirls (don't count as people) and daughter was one of 'em so no funny stuff
shrubs and bushes...................................
carrier
.
.
.
Why 4x4 - Cos thats how Mitsubishi make em
What does it do to gallon - don't know - don't care
And its got a bull bar on the front and a big towing hitch stuck out the back. So I can nail 'em coming or going.
I've got a 4x4 people carrier
Not to mention a
broken motor cycles
sand bags
paving stones
dogs, cats etc
fence posts
mesh fencing
sails
boat upholstery
gearbox
step ladders
gas ovens
refrigerators
assorted chandlery
assorted schoolgirls (don't count as people) and daughter was one of 'em so no funny stuff
shrubs and bushes...................................
carrier
.
.
.
Why 4x4 - Cos thats how Mitsubishi make em
What does it do to gallon - don't know - don't care
And its got a bull bar on the front and a big towing hitch stuck out the back. So I can nail 'em coming or going.
Robin
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
[ QUOTE ]
And they do take more space in a car park.
[/ QUOTE ]
Never let facts confuse a prejudiced view?
Ford Mondeo Estate 4804mm LOA x 1812mm wide
Ford Mondeo Saloon 4731mm LOA x 1812mm wide
Hyundai Santa Fe 4x4 4650mm LOA x 1800mm wide
Honda C-RV 4635mm LOA x 1785mm wide
In every case the widths are excluding mirrors because the overall width wasn't available quickly on all the models.
Maybe Mirelle you should buy a smaller car too. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I drive my Mondeo up the A12 every day and twice in the past year some tosspot driving a 4x4 has blocked the road for a couple of hours in the morning rush by standing the thing on its roof, trying to change lanes at a speed that a vehicle with agricultural suspension and a high centre of gravity should not be attempting, so I don't like them.
[/ QUOTE ]
A tosspot is a tosspot whatever or wherever he/she drives. The last accident I was held up for was a Ford Kha also on it's roof. Test drive a C-RV or our new Santa Fe and you will not find anything at all agriculteral.
If we are talking prejudices BTW I always thought Mondeo man was considered only one notch above White Van Man in the driving ability stakes? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
[ QUOTE ]
And they do take more space in a car park.
[/ QUOTE ]
Never let facts confuse a prejudiced view?
Ford Mondeo Estate 4804mm LOA x 1812mm wide
Ford Mondeo Saloon 4731mm LOA x 1812mm wide
Hyundai Santa Fe 4x4 4650mm LOA x 1800mm wide
Honda C-RV 4635mm LOA x 1785mm wide
In every case the widths are excluding mirrors because the overall width wasn't available quickly on all the models.
Maybe Mirelle you should buy a smaller car too. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I drive my Mondeo up the A12 every day and twice in the past year some tosspot driving a 4x4 has blocked the road for a couple of hours in the morning rush by standing the thing on its roof, trying to change lanes at a speed that a vehicle with agricultural suspension and a high centre of gravity should not be attempting, so I don't like them.
[/ QUOTE ]
A tosspot is a tosspot whatever or wherever he/she drives. The last accident I was held up for was a Ford Kha also on it's roof. Test drive a C-RV or our new Santa Fe and you will not find anything at all agriculteral.
If we are talking prejudices BTW I always thought Mondeo man was considered only one notch above White Van Man in the driving ability stakes? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Mirelle
N/A
OK, I give you the 12mm
It's a diesel estate. I love that car.... 160,000 miles and the total cost apart from fuel, filters, luboil, screenwash, light bulbs, wiper blades and tyres has been £105 for a pair of front wishbones. I get about 47mpg.
You can get no end of clobber in the back.
I make no claims for my driving ability!
It's a diesel estate. I love that car.... 160,000 miles and the total cost apart from fuel, filters, luboil, screenwash, light bulbs, wiper blades and tyres has been £105 for a pair of front wishbones. I get about 47mpg.
You can get no end of clobber in the back.
I make no claims for my driving ability!
peterb
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
I have to own up to disliking 4x4s. Not because of the number of driven wheels; there have been plenty of 4-wheel drive cars that I'm quite happy with. The problem is that 4x4 has come to mean the type of high-bodied car that started with the Range Rover, then spread into many clones. If I'm driving behind such a car then it's like driving behind a van; it reduces visibility, and stops me looking ahead on the road. Driving behind a normal saloon (or estate) I have some visibility through its windows; with a high 4x4, nothing. Result is either a reduced awareness of what's happening ahead, or leaving a longer gap between cars. It's not just 4x4s; it's vans, lorries, caravans, tractors, large trailers or anything else that reduces my visibility. But most of those are designed for a function; the function of the average 4x4 appears to be one-upmanship.
And before anyone says it, I realise that to any low-slung sports car my conventional saloon must have the same effect. But then I join the ranks of those who justify their choice of a 4x4 by its function; much though I enjoy driving a good sports car, it can't carry the loads that I put in (or on) my saloon.
I have to own up to disliking 4x4s. Not because of the number of driven wheels; there have been plenty of 4-wheel drive cars that I'm quite happy with. The problem is that 4x4 has come to mean the type of high-bodied car that started with the Range Rover, then spread into many clones. If I'm driving behind such a car then it's like driving behind a van; it reduces visibility, and stops me looking ahead on the road. Driving behind a normal saloon (or estate) I have some visibility through its windows; with a high 4x4, nothing. Result is either a reduced awareness of what's happening ahead, or leaving a longer gap between cars. It's not just 4x4s; it's vans, lorries, caravans, tractors, large trailers or anything else that reduces my visibility. But most of those are designed for a function; the function of the average 4x4 appears to be one-upmanship.
And before anyone says it, I realise that to any low-slung sports car my conventional saloon must have the same effect. But then I join the ranks of those who justify their choice of a 4x4 by its function; much though I enjoy driving a good sports car, it can't carry the loads that I put in (or on) my saloon.
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
The current 4 X 4 as we know it is a fashion or fad. Started when Land Rover decided to make a 'posh' off road vehicle, the Range Rover. Today everyone makes a 4 X 4 'off roader', some with more off road capability than others. Some just a design icon, Lexus and Porche for instance.
As the vehicle became a fashion accessory for the 'Chelsea set', it was seen as a mark of success, to be able to afford to buy and run one. Today the number of 4 X 4's bought and used as commercial off road work horses is much in the minority.
As the number of these vehicles increase on the road, a good many of us have been the victim of poorly driven, parked bad mannered ownership, this sticks in our minds more than if it had been someone driving, say a Daewoo, just because of the perceived size.
Do I own one? No. Would I own one? No. I would'nt own one because I dont need one. If I had a caravan to tow, loads of equipment to haul, had a farm then, yes I probably would. Taking the kids to school in one? Its just a trophy isnt it?
The current 4 X 4 as we know it is a fashion or fad. Started when Land Rover decided to make a 'posh' off road vehicle, the Range Rover. Today everyone makes a 4 X 4 'off roader', some with more off road capability than others. Some just a design icon, Lexus and Porche for instance.
As the vehicle became a fashion accessory for the 'Chelsea set', it was seen as a mark of success, to be able to afford to buy and run one. Today the number of 4 X 4's bought and used as commercial off road work horses is much in the minority.
As the number of these vehicles increase on the road, a good many of us have been the victim of poorly driven, parked bad mannered ownership, this sticks in our minds more than if it had been someone driving, say a Daewoo, just because of the perceived size.
Do I own one? No. Would I own one? No. I would'nt own one because I dont need one. If I had a caravan to tow, loads of equipment to haul, had a farm then, yes I probably would. Taking the kids to school in one? Its just a trophy isnt it?
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
[ QUOTE ]
. Taking the kids to school in one? Its just a trophy isnt it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Children should be loved and cherished -they are not a trophy!!
Just being obtuse!!
[ QUOTE ]
. Taking the kids to school in one? Its just a trophy isnt it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Children should be loved and cherished -they are not a trophy!!
Just being obtuse!!
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
[ QUOTE ]
Its just a trophy isnt it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I wouldn't call my choices trophies, but what is the problem with having a car purely because you like it's looks or it's capabilities or it's performance?
When did we start having to justify a choice of vehicle?
Why bother with having a choice of colours?
They could all be grey.
Why do people get so excitable about other peoples cars?
[ QUOTE ]
Its just a trophy isnt it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I wouldn't call my choices trophies, but what is the problem with having a car purely because you like it's looks or it's capabilities or it's performance?
When did we start having to justify a choice of vehicle?
Why bother with having a choice of colours?
They could all be grey.
Why do people get so excitable about other peoples cars?
Dyflin
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
Well said
Well said
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
I love my 5litre V10 4x4, and just to be really annoying, I park in disabled spaces too /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I love my 5litre V10 4x4, and just to be really annoying, I park in disabled spaces too /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
CPD
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
Everyone else seems to have an opinion so here is mine ......................
I do not like 4x4 owners for one simple reason. We all buy different cars for different reasons and usually end up actually using the features (thence enjoying the benefit) of the vehicle most, if not every time we drive them (estates, diesels, saloons, sports etc). 4x4 owners own them because they are expensive and because they can afford them, because it makes them feel posh and makes them feel associated with chelsea farmers, and for no other reason. How many 4x4's are used off road (apart from those who clearly need them - farmers etc etc etc) ?. It is another example in our sad society of people buying things because they can, and because they have enough money, and because it is a status symbol.
The link to the boating world is simple. If you have a boat, use it for what it was designed to do. I have no problems with big boats with lots of DVD players, aircon etc etc etc so long as they are used for what they were intended. If you have a boat, and dont use it, and wont sell it because then you cant tell your "mates" that you have one, then you have joined the nautical 4x4 club.
There you go, feel much better for that
Everyone else seems to have an opinion so here is mine ......................
I do not like 4x4 owners for one simple reason. We all buy different cars for different reasons and usually end up actually using the features (thence enjoying the benefit) of the vehicle most, if not every time we drive them (estates, diesels, saloons, sports etc). 4x4 owners own them because they are expensive and because they can afford them, because it makes them feel posh and makes them feel associated with chelsea farmers, and for no other reason. How many 4x4's are used off road (apart from those who clearly need them - farmers etc etc etc) ?. It is another example in our sad society of people buying things because they can, and because they have enough money, and because it is a status symbol.
The link to the boating world is simple. If you have a boat, use it for what it was designed to do. I have no problems with big boats with lots of DVD players, aircon etc etc etc so long as they are used for what they were intended. If you have a boat, and dont use it, and wont sell it because then you cant tell your "mates" that you have one, then you have joined the nautical 4x4 club.
There you go, feel much better for that
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
[ QUOTE ]
When did we start having to justify a choice of vehicle?
[/ QUOTE ]
When you started sharing the same roads or planet as anyone else /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Total freedom of choice is only possible when no one else is impacted by your choice. However your choice of car does impact others to a greater or lesser extent.
In an urban setting big 4x4s are a menace for a number of reasons including:
- They are less fuel efficient than most cars, contributing to global warming and polution - particularly with diesels.
- If they are involved in an accident the other party is more likely to be killed and injured than if they were hit by a saloon
- They are bigger than most urban cars and that does add significantly to the congestion in crowded city streets.
- When parked by the roadside they obstruct a pedestrian's view of the road - and a drivers view of pedestrians - making crossing the road more hazardous, especially for children.
- When driving behind them in they obstruct your view so it is harder to know what is going on a couple of cars ahead
- When they are driving behind you, you know that their brakes are less good than yours so if I have to stop hard there is a very good chance the 4x4 behind will hit me
Now there are people who will actually use the 4x4 off road and for them owning one can be justified, but if you don't need the off road capability it is very difficult for a responsible member of society to justify a 4x4
[ QUOTE ]
When did we start having to justify a choice of vehicle?
[/ QUOTE ]
When you started sharing the same roads or planet as anyone else /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Total freedom of choice is only possible when no one else is impacted by your choice. However your choice of car does impact others to a greater or lesser extent.
In an urban setting big 4x4s are a menace for a number of reasons including:
- They are less fuel efficient than most cars, contributing to global warming and polution - particularly with diesels.
- If they are involved in an accident the other party is more likely to be killed and injured than if they were hit by a saloon
- They are bigger than most urban cars and that does add significantly to the congestion in crowded city streets.
- When parked by the roadside they obstruct a pedestrian's view of the road - and a drivers view of pedestrians - making crossing the road more hazardous, especially for children.
- When driving behind them in they obstruct your view so it is harder to know what is going on a couple of cars ahead
- When they are driving behind you, you know that their brakes are less good than yours so if I have to stop hard there is a very good chance the 4x4 behind will hit me
Now there are people who will actually use the 4x4 off road and for them owning one can be justified, but if you don't need the off road capability it is very difficult for a responsible member of society to justify a 4x4
Robin
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone else seems to have an opinion so here is mine ......................
I do not like 4x4 owners for one simple reason. We all buy different cars for different reasons and usually end up actually using the features (thence enjoying the benefit) of the vehicle most, if not every time we drive them (estates, diesels, saloons, sports etc). 4x4 owners own them because they are expensive and because they can afford them, because it makes them feel posh and makes them feel associated with chelsea farmers, and for no other reason. How many 4x4's are used off road (apart from those who clearly need them - farmers etc etc etc) ?. It is another example in our sad society of people buying things because they can, and because they have enough money, and because it is a status symbol.
[/ QUOTE ]
What a complete and utter load of bollox. You will tell me next you bought a Centaur because you like sailing, are they not Westerly's own 4x4? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Who said you have to use a 4x4 off road? Ours is only a 2x4 unless it needs to be 4x4 and has a smaller footprint and tighter turning circle than most cars for in town use, see my reply to Mirelle re comparison sizes to the good old Ford Mondeo. By your flawed logic sports cars and sports saloons should only be for people who drive on race tracks? Where do cars like the Audi Quattro stand, OK because they are low despite being 4wd but not used off road? Our C-RV cost less than the estate car it replaced BTW, hardly makes it a thing of envy does it?
What amazes me too is the logic or lack of it that singles out 4x4s for reasons that apparently are ignored for motorhomes, cars towing caravans, boats, camping trailers etc, why because they are considered not the 'rich'.
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone else seems to have an opinion so here is mine ......................
I do not like 4x4 owners for one simple reason. We all buy different cars for different reasons and usually end up actually using the features (thence enjoying the benefit) of the vehicle most, if not every time we drive them (estates, diesels, saloons, sports etc). 4x4 owners own them because they are expensive and because they can afford them, because it makes them feel posh and makes them feel associated with chelsea farmers, and for no other reason. How many 4x4's are used off road (apart from those who clearly need them - farmers etc etc etc) ?. It is another example in our sad society of people buying things because they can, and because they have enough money, and because it is a status symbol.
[/ QUOTE ]
What a complete and utter load of bollox. You will tell me next you bought a Centaur because you like sailing, are they not Westerly's own 4x4? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Who said you have to use a 4x4 off road? Ours is only a 2x4 unless it needs to be 4x4 and has a smaller footprint and tighter turning circle than most cars for in town use, see my reply to Mirelle re comparison sizes to the good old Ford Mondeo. By your flawed logic sports cars and sports saloons should only be for people who drive on race tracks? Where do cars like the Audi Quattro stand, OK because they are low despite being 4wd but not used off road? Our C-RV cost less than the estate car it replaced BTW, hardly makes it a thing of envy does it?
What amazes me too is the logic or lack of it that singles out 4x4s for reasons that apparently are ignored for motorhomes, cars towing caravans, boats, camping trailers etc, why because they are considered not the 'rich'.
CPD
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
What amazes me too is the logic or lack of it that singles out 4x4s for ...............
Thats exactly the point. People dont buy 4x4's for the 4 wheel drive capability. They buy them for the reasons I outlined above. I bought a centaur as a sailing boat and that what i use it for. People (in the main) buy 4x4's to drop the kids off at school, not for the 4 wheel drive capability. no logic !
What amazes me too is the logic or lack of it that singles out 4x4s for ...............
Thats exactly the point. People dont buy 4x4's for the 4 wheel drive capability. They buy them for the reasons I outlined above. I bought a centaur as a sailing boat and that what i use it for. People (in the main) buy 4x4's to drop the kids off at school, not for the 4 wheel drive capability. no logic !
Signed Out
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
All comes down to being considerate doesn't it?
Some are, some aren't.
Things became a bit misleading when the term 4x4 gets used, as said above, to refer to the particular type of vehicle that you all know is being referred to- Cayenne etc, and not Fiat Pandas or Suzukis.
Consideration is an important issue in all forms though, and this covers "freedom of choice" as well as anything else. What everyone's missed here though, and always do, is the very fact of these cars massing around schools means that there are masses of schoolkids, and this means more population. THAT's what we need control of. With less people, there's less stress on everything. And allow simpler migration to mitigate workforce matters.
Jem, with an opinion on everything.
p.s. Am glad Mirelle pointed out my opinion on marine 4x4s being AWBs- it's a point I also made a couple of weeks ago in one of our regular anti AWB threads.
All comes down to being considerate doesn't it?
Some are, some aren't.
Things became a bit misleading when the term 4x4 gets used, as said above, to refer to the particular type of vehicle that you all know is being referred to- Cayenne etc, and not Fiat Pandas or Suzukis.
Consideration is an important issue in all forms though, and this covers "freedom of choice" as well as anything else. What everyone's missed here though, and always do, is the very fact of these cars massing around schools means that there are masses of schoolkids, and this means more population. THAT's what we need control of. With less people, there's less stress on everything. And allow simpler migration to mitigate workforce matters.
Jem, with an opinion on everything.
p.s. Am glad Mirelle pointed out my opinion on marine 4x4s being AWBs- it's a point I also made a couple of weeks ago in one of our regular anti AWB threads.
Robin
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
[ QUOTE ]
- They are less fuel efficient than most cars, contributing to global warming and polution - particularly with diesels.
[/ QUOTE ]
So are big Mercedes, BMWs, Jaguars, Rolls Royces, Ferraris, etc etc. So what, are they on your hit list too?
[ QUOTE ]
- They are bigger than most urban cars and that does add significantly to the congestion in crowded city streets
[/ QUOTE ]
See my post replying to Mirelle, ours is smaller than a Mondeo let alone luxury cars.
[ QUOTE ]
- When parked by the roadside they obstruct a pedestrian's view of the road - and a drivers view of pedestrians - making crossing the road more hazardous, especially for children
[/ QUOTE ]
a) Children cannot see over standard cars either, they could look through the windows of either but did they not read the green cross code?
b) Use the crossings! Where I live there are pedestrian crossings with lights every 100m or so, why do people chose to cross from between cars or behind buses.
[ QUOTE ]
- When driving behind them in they obstruct your view so it is harder to know what is going on a couple of cars ahead
[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't tailgate it will not be a problem.
[ QUOTE ]
- When they are driving behind you, you know that their brakes are less good than yours so if I have to stop hard there is a very good chance the 4x4 behind will hit me
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have figures to prove that? I would like to see them.
[ QUOTE ]
- They are less fuel efficient than most cars, contributing to global warming and polution - particularly with diesels.
[/ QUOTE ]
So are big Mercedes, BMWs, Jaguars, Rolls Royces, Ferraris, etc etc. So what, are they on your hit list too?
[ QUOTE ]
- They are bigger than most urban cars and that does add significantly to the congestion in crowded city streets
[/ QUOTE ]
See my post replying to Mirelle, ours is smaller than a Mondeo let alone luxury cars.
[ QUOTE ]
- When parked by the roadside they obstruct a pedestrian's view of the road - and a drivers view of pedestrians - making crossing the road more hazardous, especially for children
[/ QUOTE ]
a) Children cannot see over standard cars either, they could look through the windows of either but did they not read the green cross code?
b) Use the crossings! Where I live there are pedestrian crossings with lights every 100m or so, why do people chose to cross from between cars or behind buses.
[ QUOTE ]
- When driving behind them in they obstruct your view so it is harder to know what is going on a couple of cars ahead
[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't tailgate it will not be a problem.
[ QUOTE ]
- When they are driving behind you, you know that their brakes are less good than yours so if I have to stop hard there is a very good chance the 4x4 behind will hit me
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have figures to prove that? I would like to see them.
Dyflin
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
What I really hate is when there is a cross over between 4x4's and AWBs
What I really hate is when there is a cross over between 4x4's and AWBs
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
Both Centaurpipedream and Bedouin, and others on this thread - you know who you are- have the same affliction. They only accept the logic that suits their case.
Therefore 4x4s will always be gasguzzling, huge vehicles that never encounter ice, snow, oily roundabouts etc. where their superior traction may make their passage safer and are driven by idiots "because it makes them feel posh and makes them feel associated with chelsea(?) farmers" (Surely real famers)
What a load of peurile twaddle.
No wonder I pay their opinion no heed.
Both Centaurpipedream and Bedouin, and others on this thread - you know who you are- have the same affliction. They only accept the logic that suits their case.
Therefore 4x4s will always be gasguzzling, huge vehicles that never encounter ice, snow, oily roundabouts etc. where their superior traction may make their passage safer and are driven by idiots "because it makes them feel posh and makes them feel associated with chelsea(?) farmers" (Surely real famers)
What a load of peurile twaddle.
No wonder I pay their opinion no heed.
CPD
Well-Known Member
Re: Protest Too Much?
So name any other item/product/purchase where the main feature (and therefore benefit) being purchased is (as good as) never used. Thats my logic, thats my case. Whats yours again ....
So name any other item/product/purchase where the main feature (and therefore benefit) being purchased is (as good as) never used. Thats my logic, thats my case. Whats yours again ....
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Brown-ricers whinge
The main feature is that they are a motor vehicle capable of transporting people and goods, legally, on our roads. They are transport. These fatuous arguments about being a danger driving on the road to "ordinary" road users. Pardon?
Last time I looked it was still legal to buy a 4x4 and the last several MOTs the Jeep, Rav4 and CRV passed with no trouble.
There's a bloke up the road has a Porsche, but he only drives around slowly and our elderly next-door neighbours have a 4 seater, but only ever use 2 seats. Bugger me, a fisherman across the road has a pick-up, but I've never seen him carry anything!
What is your fixation with other people's motives for buying cars. Does it extend to their TVs, washing machines, mobile phones. Does everyone have to make full use of every facility of everything they own?
What happened to free choice?
The main feature is that they are a motor vehicle capable of transporting people and goods, legally, on our roads. They are transport. These fatuous arguments about being a danger driving on the road to "ordinary" road users. Pardon?
Last time I looked it was still legal to buy a 4x4 and the last several MOTs the Jeep, Rav4 and CRV passed with no trouble.
There's a bloke up the road has a Porsche, but he only drives around slowly and our elderly next-door neighbours have a 4 seater, but only ever use 2 seats. Bugger me, a fisherman across the road has a pick-up, but I've never seen him carry anything!
What is your fixation with other people's motives for buying cars. Does it extend to their TVs, washing machines, mobile phones. Does everyone have to make full use of every facility of everything they own?
What happened to free choice?