Will Rocna fit a Berwick bow?

[Neeves]

I don't see genuine Bruce and Lewmar's Claw side by side but looking at them individually they look very similar. I know what everyone says, only the genuine Bruce is reliable, but my own and limited experience of genuine Bruce is that I would't touch one - in comparison to a more modern design (the latter being easy to set in a variety of seabeds, unquestionably reliable and unquestionably expensive, or more so than a genuine Bruce - if you can find one).

Is there any reliable evidence behind the oft repeated story that only the genuine Bruce work - or is it simply one of these truths (that isn't) but gets 'more true' by the constant repetition?

Retrieving a 15kg, any anchor, by hand (often full of mud) is going to discourage anchoring. If you have a windlass it should not be an issue but if you have 8mm chain (worse 10mm) then I will guarantee your enthusiasm for anchoring will wane and there will be times when you should move/re-anchor and hauling in by hand will discourage - to the detriment of the experience. I'd seriously caution against a 15kg modern model - unless you have a reliable windlass. You seem to suggest that your 10kg Bruce is adequate, when set. A modern anchor will over come the issues of setting and be more reliable when deployed - and as the latter is not an issue, think hard about 15kg.

Jonathan

And a Merry Christmas to one and all

 

[NormanS]

I don't see genuine Bruce and Lewmar's Claw side by side but looking at them individually they look very similar. I know what everyone says, only the genuine Bruce is reliable, but my own and limited experience of genuine Bruce is that I would't touch one - in comparison to a more modern design (the latter being easy to set in a variety of seabeds, unquestionably reliable and unquestionably expensive, or more so than a genuine Bruce - if you can find one).

Is there any reliable evidence behind the oft repeated story that only the genuine Bruce work - or is it simply one of these truths (that isn't) but gets 'more true' by the constant repetition?

Retrieving a 15kg, any anchor, by hand (often full of mud) is going to discourage anchoring. If you have a windlass it should not be an issue but if you have 8mm chain (worse 10mm) then I will guarantee your enthusiasm for anchoring will wane and there will be times when you should move/re-anchor and hauling in by hand will discourage - to the detriment of the experience. I'd seriously caution against a 15kg modern model - unless you have a reliable windlass. You seem to suggest that your 10kg Bruce is adequate, when set. A modern anchor will over come the issues of setting and be more reliable when deployed - and as the latter is not an issue, think hard about 15kg.

Jonathan

And a Merry Christmas to one and all

A merry Christmas to you Jonathan.

I thought you said, just a few posts back that you weren't going to be comparing different anchors, and yet there you are, saying that you wouldn't touch a Bruce, in spite of your own admittedly limited experience of them.

I still wish you all the best for Christmas though.

P.S. I have found a genuine Bruce to be excellent, but I have absolutely no experience of copies of them, but some look very blunt.

 

[DennisF]

I don't see genuine Bruce and Lewmar's Claw side by side but looking at them individually they look very similar. I know what everyone says, only the genuine Bruce is reliable, but my own and limited experience of genuine Bruce is that I would't touch one - in comparison to a more modern design (the latter being easy to set in a variety of seabeds, unquestionably reliable and unquestionably expensive, or more so than a genuine Bruce - if you can find one).

Is there any reliable evidence behind the oft repeated story that only the genuine Bruce work - or is it simply one of these truths (that isn't) but gets 'more true' by the constant repetition?

Retrieving a 15kg, any anchor, by hand (often full of mud) is going to discourage anchoring. If you have a windlass it should not be an issue but if you have 8mm chain (worse 10mm) then I will guarantee your enthusiasm for anchoring will wane and there will be times when you should move/re-anchor and hauling in by hand will discourage - to the detriment of the experience. I'd seriously caution against a 15kg modern model - unless you have a reliable windlass. You seem to suggest that your 10kg Bruce is adequate, when set. A modern anchor will over come the issues of setting and be more reliable when deployed - and as the latter is not an issue, think hard about 15kg..

Jonathan

And a Merry Christmas to one and all

Thanks to everyone for the opinions. I do indeed have 8mm chain with a 10kg genuine Bruce, and only a manual windlass. I'll see if the Rocna shape fits on the bow roller when I visit the boat. However, perhaps I should do some more aggressive testing of the existing setup before committing to changing anything

 

[Neeves]

Norman, thanks for being generous!

Yes, guilty as charged! But it was a genuine question of the validity of the comment - I simply do not know, was admitting ignorance and requesting education.

Too much lore is true, because its on the internet and constantly repeated - and becomes even more true with the repetition.

Sorry, in advance, if I provoke a flurry of: 'my genuine Bruce is perfect and better than all the copies (none of which I have tried - and I know its better because I read about it on a previous thread)'

I'm sitting here waiting to be allowed to open my presents!

Jonathan

Edit

PS Dennis - best post I have seen. I have no axe to grind, or not one I'm trying to express - but I'd rather you tried before spending decent money! I'd never discourage buying a better anchor (and they are well known and defined) but I lift our 15kg anchor by hand (sometimes) and would not want to make it a habit (at 2am in the rain!).

close edit.

 

[Seajet]

I have a genuine Bruce ( 7.5kg, 4 metres 1/4 chain & 30 metres nylon, 22' 1.5 ton boat ) and have a very high opinion of the design, it digs in first time for me and has held in some seriously testing conditions.

I have anchored a fair bit on other boats inc my chum's Centaur with a Rocna I'd guess over 10kg - 15 ? - and that works well too, once one gets it past the forestay into the water.

I do think a 10kg Bruce - or any other type - might be a bit minimal for a Berwick, though I expect it has the advantage over my setup, of an all chain rode.

 

[Malish]

where are you? You might find there is a forumite in your locale with a Rocna who could assist with a trial fitting, 'tis the time of year to be checking anchor shackles etc

 

[Goldie]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is it about the Spade that would make it fit my bow roller if the Rocna will not? I had assumed it was about the angle of the plough tip rather than anything else.

If nothing else, the Rocna has a roll hoop, the Spade doesn't.

 

[Seajet]

where are you? You might find there is a forumite in your locale with a Rocna who could assist with a trial fitting, 'tis the time of year to be checking anchor shackles etc

Excellent idea. :encouragement:

 

[DennisF]

where are you? You might find there is a forumite in your locale with a Rocna who could assist with a trial fitting, 'tis the time of year to be checking anchor shackles etc

The boat is based in Ipswich, although I am based in the Midlands

 

[BabaYaga]

Retrieving a 15kg, any anchor, by hand (often full of mud) is going to discourage anchoring. If you have a windlass it should not be an issue but if you have 8mm chain (worse 10mm) then I will guarantee your enthusiasm for anchoring will wane and there will be times when you should move/re-anchor and hauling in by hand will discourage - to the detriment of the experience. I'd seriously caution against a 15kg modern model - unless you have a reliable windlass.

If the OP has been fine with hauling a 10 kilo anchor by hand I think the additional effort for handling a 15 kilo anchor will be quite small in most cases. The weight difference between the two equals less than 4m of 8mm chain. So the critical thing is really the anchoring depth, a heavier anchor might restrict how deep he would be comfortable to go.
I use a 16 kg Delta on 20m of 8mm chain, followed by rope, and have no windlass. I have anchored in 12-13 metres and it was quite manageable, even if I would prefer not to go much deeper than that. In more normal anchoring depths of 5-6 metres I find lifting by hand is trivial.
On the other hand, pulling the boat up against a strong wind can be hard work, but that has nothing to do with the weight of the anchor.

 

[Kelpie]

I have 40m of 8mm chain and a 15kg Rocna, and a manual windlass. As the poster above says, depth is the biggest constraint.
It's only ever an issue when sailing off the anchor. If the anchor breaks out at an inconvenient moment I sometimes find myself wishing that I could finish the retrieval a bit quicker.

 

[kalanka]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the allied issue of whether or not the anchor will self launch.

I replaced a 45lb CQR on a Sadler 34 with a 20 kg Rocna on 8mm chain.

However, although each anchor fits snugly in the bow roller, the Rocna does not self launch whereas the CQR did. This is is an inconvenience since, when singlehanded, I find it helpful to be able to veer out the first part of the chain using the windlass remote control in the cockpit. With the Rocna I now have to remember to go to the bow, veer out a foot of chain and push the anchor partially off the roller with my foot so that the anchor is primed to self launch. Against this, the Rocna is much quieter when under way - no moving parts to clunk.

 

[blackbeard]

just for the record, seeing that this has elements of an anchor thread:
I used to have a copy of a Bruce - don't know what make as the maker was too ashamed to put his stamp on it. Gave me some hairy moments. Eventually found the ideal location for it - in the scrap metal bin of my local Council dump. On close examination there were some small but presumably vital differences in its geometry compared with a real Bruce.
Currently have a 10 kg Britany (yes I know, but it works for me; LOVES mud) with 8 mm chain, and this elderly pensioner of slender build, using an Armstrong's patent handraulic windlass, has no difficulty in raising it (getting it through the pulpit into its locker is another matter).

 

[Neeves]

When I look at French boats some of them carry Brittanies (as well as Kobra's, Spades, Bugels) and i often wonder what it is about either the French or their seabeds that allow them success when everyone else shuns them. Its the same in America, Fortress (and Danforth) on the bow of yachts - but unacceptable anywhere else. Why do I think its jingoism in disguise that has us denegrating what are obviously successful products.

 

[SailingVet]

We had a Westerly Berwick Ketch and a 15kg Manson Supreme that fitted fine. I think the Manson is very similar in size/shape to the Rocna.
We now have a Jeanneau with much more vertical bow. A Manson works just as well but much easier to ding the gel coat with the more vertical bow!
Andy

 

[DennisF]

We had a Westerly Berwick Ketch and a 15kg Manson Supreme that fitted fine. I think the Manson is very similar in size/shape to the Rocna.
We now have a Jeanneau with much more vertical bow. A Manson works just as well but much easier to ding the gel coat with the more vertical bow!
Andy

Thanks. My Berwick is the sloop version so no 'mini bowsprit'. I'll be visiting it in a week or two and will try the cardboard cutout then.

 

[LittleSister]

Never mind the dimensions or effectiveness, a Rocna will definitely not fit a Berwick bow aesthetically!

On the other hand, the unreliability of ye olde CQRs and Bruces is probably why you see so few Berwicks / Pentlands / Renowns / Longbows around these days.

 

[DennisF]

Just to help anyone who searches for this in the future, the answer is, no a Rocna will not fit the Berwick. The cardboard template would not sit fully home without hitting the bow gel coat, and would foul the furling drum on deployment.

 

[Humblebee]

Just to help anyone who searches for this in the future, the answer is, no a Rocna will not fit the Berwick. The cardboard template would not sit fully home without hitting the bow gel coat, and would foul the furling drum on deployment.

Thanks for letting us know, Dennis.
I have a Westerly Longbow - same hull but our bow arrangements may be different. The present anchor, a CQR, lies on the deck and won't sit on the anchor roller. I'm looking to upgrade hence your comments, and others above, have been helpful.
Are you in the Westerly Owners Association? Some helpful advice available on their website and forums.

 

[DennisF]

Thanks for letting us know, Dennis.
I have a Westerly Longbow - same hull but our bow arrangements may be different. The present anchor, a CQR, lies on the deck and won't sit on the anchor roller. I'm looking to upgrade hence your comments, and others above, have been helpful.
Are you in the Westerly Owners Association? Some helpful advice available on their website and forums.

Bow arrangement should be the same - the Berwick is the bilge keel version of the Longbow. I am a member of WOA and asked the same question on the WOA forum in December but had no replies......