Wightlink rescues MacGregor...

[snowleopard]

no its not , because its quicker to drop a keel

AVS calculations for drop keel boats are made with the assumption that the keel will stay put. I have come across quite a few that rely on gravity to keep the keel down. Once the boat goes beyond a 90° knock-down the keel is able to retract, reducing stability at a critical point. Coded boats with drop keels have to have a positive lock in the down position but plenty of ordinary cruisers don't.

 

[gandy]

A lot of people here are forgetting that this is sold as a trailer sailer with the ability to be a fast powerboat, tow a skier etc. As such it would be nearly as safe unballasted as most half cabin powerboats of similar length and beam. ...

Is that really the case? The limitations for unballasted operation were listed earlier, and seem too severe to be comparable with a purpose-built powerboat. For example you're not even allowed to go into the cabin.

 

[beachbum]

That struck me too - after all, most mobos don't carry anti-ballast in the form of a mast...

 

[peter radclyffe]

common sense & safety at sea are free for all to learn, there is still time before more accidents

 

[Tranona]

common sense & safety at sea are free for all to learn, there is still time before more accidents

Maybe commonsense does rule. 10000 boats sold over many years and as yet no sign of an abnormal number of accidents!

One of the problems is that when people see things they instinctively don't like, the imagination often goes into overdrive. We see it often on this forum, usually responding to photos of incidents or reports of events when people try to deduce what has happened from very thin evidence - and are usually wrong!

The evidence in the case of this boat is that it can be used safely as designed. Does not mean you have to like it, but it is difficult to argue against the real world experience!

 

[BurnitBlue]

Maybe commonsense does rule. 10000 boats sold over many years and as yet no sign of an abnormal number of accidents!

By now everyone must be dying to know what I think about all this.

So I will tell you. The Mac 26 with its water filled ballast tanks is a death trap. No argument about that at all. I agree with Photo Dog completely.

Folk justify their safety despite their lack of stability by the low number of accidents. This must be the most asanine argument I have ever heard.

Let me put it another way. I have not heard of ONE caravan foundering off Cape Horn in a force 12 storm and that type of weather is common down there. Not ONE so caravans must be safe.

To be serious. The reason there are no incidents with caravans off Cape Horn is because no body would be stupid enough to take one down there.

The same applies to a Mac 26. Personally, I have been deep sea cruising for decades but I would feel nervous taking a Mac 26 across the harbour. I really do mean that and I don't think I am the only one.

So there. Now you know what I think about all this so relax.

 

[David_Jersey]

The reason there are no incidents with caravans off Cape Horn is because no body would be stupid enough to take one down there.

I've rounded Cape Horn in a Caravan. twice.

You want a nice 6 Berth 'van, anything smaller is simply asking for trouble.

Their is even a Group for folk who regularly "Cruise the Horn":-

 

[pendlecats]

There is an angle you may consider when looking at the level of incidents, that is to say you tend to treat something like this, boat, car etc. differently on their envisaged abilities and not on actual abilities.

If I was sailing one of these, I would do cautiously even on a lake and as such would not likely ever have a problem, however if I was sailing a well respected marq I may push the bounderies so to speak and end up dismasted (not that I sail that way).

For instance, in car terms, three types of cars driving at the speed limit, a little Fiat spins off the road (everyone will critisize the choice of car and call the driver), a Porche spins off everyone will be suprised and when the 4x4 spins off during the school run the driver is suprised.

Maybe most folk who buy these have assesed their abilities and stability better than most on here think, I imagine the guy in the drink did not, not that I would ever like to go on one.

 

[peter radclyffe]

Maybe commonsense does rule. 10000 boats sold over many years and as yet no sign of an abnormal number of accidents!

One of the problems is that when people see things they instinctively don't like, the imagination often goes into overdrive. We see it often on this forum, usually responding to photos of incidents or reports of events when people try to deduce what has happened from very thin evidence - and are usually wrong!

The evidence in the case of this boat is that it can be used safely as designed. Does not mean you have to like it, but it is difficult to argue against the real world experience!

i have been building boats for 37 years

 

[Tranona]

By now everyone must be dying to know what I think about all this.

So I will tell you. The Mac 26 with its water filled ballast tanks is a death trap. No argument about that at all. I agree with Photo Dog completely.

Folk justify their safety despite their lack of stability by the low number of accidents. This must be the most asanine argument I have ever heard.

So there. Now you know what I think about all this so relax.

Not sure what you are trying to tell me - other than your argument is a perfect example of what I am saying. Just because you don't like it you have to label it as a "death trap" with absolutely no evidence to support this statement - in fact the reverse. 10000 in use and unless it is very well hidden just the one accident which resulted in deaths and that was not directly the fault of the boat but improper use by any standards.

I don't like it either - it is not my kind of boat but as I said earlier there are lots of things I don't like, just like everybody else, but that does not justify calling things "death traps" or suggesting there is something wrong with people who buy them as others (not you) have done.

 

[Tranona]

i have been building boats for 37 years

Not sure why that should be relevant. I have been sailing for longer than that and built my own boats. As I said in an earlier post I have owned the same "old boat" which would not get even category C and sailed all over the channel safely for 30 years.

However that does not mean I have to wear blinkers and ignore the evidence.

You don't have to like the boat, but that does not mean you should claim that it is something that it isn't! In other circles that might be called bigotry!

 

[gandy]

For instance, in car terms, three types of cars driving at the speed limit, a little Fiat spins off the road (everyone will critisize the choice of car and call the driver), a Porche spins off everyone will be suprised and when the 4x4 spins off during the school run the driver is suprised.

In reality I bet more Porches spin off than Fiats. That's why insurance premiums are higher for high performance cars.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I suspect I've already made the comment...

..."if duffers will drown"

Thanks, Arthur.

 

[Alfie168]

There have been enough boat tests of the M26 to highlight its strengths and weaknesses. I'm not aware of a tester who has issued any warnings, however veiled, about its water worthiness.

On the other hand I did re-read the MAIB report on that wretched boat the BEZ, after the Puffin Island tragedy in 2005. It highlights all sorts of design and construction shortcomings which contributed to its general lack of seaworthiness and stability. I have never heard those comments levelled at the M26. Don't you think that in litigious USA, where the majority have been sold, that a 'death trap' boat would generate a considerable whirlpool of legal activity.

I'm not aware that the M26 has generated any interest from the legal profession, so its highly unlikely its a 'death trap', and the prima facie evidence suggests that the opposite is the case (but i'm doing a search just in case). Its just an ugly hybrid boat that does nothing particularly well, but from which the majority of owners most likely get great pleasure.

I'd sail one, provided I was in disguise.

Tim

 

[aknight]

So you object to a Macgregor because it might go to 91 degrees and stay there, but have no problem with a catamaran that would do precisely the same, simply because it gives less warning?

Hey, it's your choice, and unlike many people here I would not for a minute want to ban the sort of boat you want to sail!

Yeah but, no but, actually what I said was I'd choose my cat based on its initial stability - not that I'd choose any cat because it must de facto have initial stability. There's a difference. You'd assess a cat differently to a keelboat, obviously, and that's the test I'd use in deciding which cat I thought was safe and which I didn't.

Nor did I say that Macgregors should be banned. My point was that I think that they are unduly tippy given that they are marketed as "yachts". You mention your Hunter - I don't think any novice is going to mistake that for a beginner's boat. But I do think that the Macgregor appeals to people that are new to boat ownership and whose ability to assess and understand the risks may not be as developed as that of someone with greater experience. That isn't to decry the pleasure derived by many people who own and enjoy the Mac 26, but simply to recognise that an inexperienced or forgetful initiate could get caught out very badly. People tend to understand instinctively that dinghies will tip over, they are not necessarily going to consider that to be a serious risk in what is marketed as a "cruising salboat".

As the North Wales tragedy demonstrated, RCD certification is no guarantee of safety, and it only took one incident involving death for that "yacht" - in reality a dinghy with a lid - to be withdrawn from the market for a while, IIRC?

 

[Searush]

Having sailed a Solo dinghy at the weekend with the bouancy tanks half full of water (don't ask, the boat was a gift) I suspect I can claim some experience of sailing vessels with half filled ballast tanks.

It was hard to deal with gusts, eddies & tacking. I got wet & the boat swamped when righted - it also failed to self bail due to being so low in the water that waves simply came in over the stern or she submarined when I tried to sail her swamped.

Went like a train once I drained the tanks mind. My next task is to seal the split floor to tank seams.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

It has been repeatedly shown , in many many different walks of life, that humans will not always read instructions or follow directions. The reasons being overfamiliarity, arrogance, lack of language skills, inability to retain information, drunkeness, poor quality training, etc etc.

So, under these circumstances is it reasonable that something as important as the ulitmate stability of a small yacht is left to a set of instructions or stickers.. which may or may not be followed or available to the current owner or operator of a small boat?

Every day of your life you will walk past stickers warning of something dangerous. Even more often you will not be told but left to use your noddle. GFor example, are you told to apply the handbrake before leaving your car, or to shut the door before driving. Are yopu told to make sure there is air in the tyres. Are you told not to put your hand in that pan of boiling water.

There are many things about a boat that could be as dangerous as not filling the ballast tanks and we're not warned about them. It's simply impractical tpo cover everything so the assumption has to be made that the operator has some inte;lligence. Warnings are in the main reserved for the non obvious risks.

 

[Tranona]

But I do think that the Macgregor appeals to people that are new to boat ownership and whose ability to assess and understand the risks may not be as developed as that of someone with greater experience. That isn't to decry the pleasure derived by many people who own and enjoy the Mac 26, but simply to recognise that an inexperienced or forgetful initiate could get caught out very badly. People tend to understand instinctively that dinghies will tip over, they are not necessarily going to consider that to be a serious risk in what is marketed as a "cruising salboat".

- in reality a dinghy with a lid - to be withdrawn from the market for a while, IIRC?

I would like to see your evidence for this statement. Once again I think imagination is taking over from reality. There are two MacGregors in our club and both are owned by very experienced peole who bought them for what they are.

Why should it be withdrawn from the market? Think the other way round. How many more do they have to make and sell to satisfied customers who operate them safely before you accept you may be wrong? Is 10000 - more than eny other boat of its size not enough for you?

 

[Ubergeekian]

By now everyone must be dying to know what I think about all this.

So I will tell you. The Mac 26 with its water filled ballast tanks is a death trap. No argument about that at all. I agree with Photo Dog completely.

Folk justify their safety despite their lack of stability by the low number of accidents. This must be the most asanine argument I have ever heard.

So what you are saying, basically, is that the evidence of ten thousand of these things in use is irrelevant?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Yeah but, no but, actually what I said was I'd choose my cat based on its initial stability - not that I'd choose any cat because it must de facto have initial stability. There's a difference. You'd assess a cat differently to a keelboat, obviously, and that's the test I'd use in deciding which cat I thought was safe and which I didn't.

I'd assess a light weight, ballasted, dual mode trailer-sailer differently to either a cat or a keel boat, myself. Let's not forget that by the standard of proper traditional yachts - the Vertues of this world - almost all modern yachts are laughably flimsy and unseaworthy ...