Wightlink rescues MacGregor...

photodog said:
For that matter why do you think he should be allowed to buy one because you do approve???

I have made my position pretty clear about the Macgregor, and why I do not think that it is safe... But just in case you missed my previous spelling it out in black and white...

IF THE OPERATOR DOES NOT FILL THE BALLAST TANKS, THE AVS IS 60 DEGREES.

This on a 26 foot boat which is sold as a cruiser and has a covered deck and a enclosed cabin.

This could easily be fixed by the Ballast being automatically loaded upon entering the water.. and the operator having to make a active decision to stop the tank filling.


I know of NO OTHER small yacht... and dont p.i.s.s about this is a small yacht..... looks like a yacht... is advertised as a yacht... and is probably used as most yachts are used... that should the operator make a simple mistake will fail into a unsafe condition... and make no mistake... a small yacht that can accomodate up to 6 people with a 60 degree avs is unsafe.

And, BTW,, I have never said in my previous postings that people should not be allowed to buy one... I have said...

1)" I find it gobsmacking that a craft of this nature can gain certification and be legl for sale in the UK"
2) " A yacht with a enclosed cabin has to have a failsafe amount of stability to prevent a inversion except in extreme coinditions"
3) "I also cant help but think that there comes a point on the stability curve were someone needs to step in and say... hmmm... thats a deathtrap!"
4) "Later, around the dying embers of the once proud fleet... we would all dance in a hypnotic trance formalising our penance to the god of the wind for creaing such a monstrosity."
5) "I do however think that they do a disservice to a proud seafareing nation such as ours to have these things in country"
6)"Frankly, I think that the boat is unsafe, the Water Ballast should fill automatically, and the operator should have to make a positive choice to stop this happening, versus having to make a positive choice to have it happen"
7) "I am concerned that this machine, which appeals to inexperienced sailors, is being marketed as intrinsically safe, when it is not, and is suitable for open water use, which it is not certified for"


I have not called for it to be banned, or said people should not be allowed to buy it.... what I have done is said precisley why I think the boat is dangerous... and what could be done to fix the problem.

I would sure like to here a arguement from yourself that can justify why you feel a cruising sail boat which has a potential AVS of 60 degrees is safe or should be made available in the Uk... apart from the odvious one of thinning out the bottom of the gene pool.

:)
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Read what you have written again! IT IS YOUR OPINION!

The boat has been certified in Category C - for use in sheltered waters. It comes with full instructions on how to operate it safely. Apart from the one press report posted here, the only "evidence" that this boat MIGHT be unsafe is one photograph, from which people here have blown up all sorts of horror stories which may or may not be believable.

Other than that, there are probably more of this model of boat (the two varieties) in use than ANY OTHER single model of similar size in the world. If you are right and it is unsafe, given the 10000 in use, where are all the accidents and deaths?

Might I suggest, given your superior knowledge on the subject you take it up with the certifying body to confirm that it does meet the RCD in the right category and contact the designer with your ideas for modifications.

And most importantly remove the last statement in your post. Don't think the parents of the two children who died in the accident in the States would like to see what you have written.

BTW I do not approve or disapprove of the boat - it does not meet my requirements, but I can say that about many , no most other boats (and cars, televisions whatever).
 
aknight said:
Orbister, if my boat carries too much sail for the conditions, it heels until it spills the wind. I don't expect it, when operated within a pretty wide range of conditions, to fall right over and then stay over.
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Just like every dinghy in the world does, you mean? And like the Macgregor doesn't do if properly used? Shall we introduce catamarans to the discussion?

Sorry, but BOAT BITES IF MISUSED is not the most terrifying news I've ever seen.
 
Well of course its my opinion....

Am I not allowed to have one??

I have not presented a under-graduate academic paper fully referenced and concluded....... But my opinion is based upon the specs as published by the Manufacturer, (Who I have cited btw) and its recommended operating proceedures.

There is a clear difference in our thinking in relation to this matter...

You clearly believe that there must be clear statistical evidence of deaths or injuries before something is considered unsafe. Ie; A significant number of pople have to die.

I believe that we must be more proactive in our approach to yacht safety, and that there are some design elements which need to meet certain basic standards, which is why we have legislation in regards to certification. Stability lies at the core of these regulations and lies at the core of yacht safety.


The problem with "Lets wait and see if there is a problem before we act " to safety is that it ignores the vast experience that humanity has with previous safety issues.. and as a consequence it condemns us to making the same mistakes over and over ad infinentum. It defies logic that if we see a potential failure point in a proceedure or device that could lead to failure of a process or machine, that we do not act to prevent this in advance of the failure occuring.

It has been repeatedly shown , in many many different walks of life, that humans will not always read instructions or follow directions. The reasons being overfamiliarity, arrogance, lack of language skills, inability to retain information, drunkeness, poor quality training, etc etc.

So, under these circumstances is it reasonable that something as important as the ulitmate stability of a small yacht is left to a set of instructions or stickers.. which may or may not be followed or available to the current owner or operator of a small boat?

My opinion, (as you point out,) is that it is not reasonable. Your opinion clearly is that it is reasonable.


Now, it just so happens that the US accident is almost a perfect example of the set of circumstances that can come together to produce a tragedy with this machine.

We see a operator, intoxicated, who overloads his boat, and fails to fill the ballast tank, which leads to the boat inverting, not then self righting as designed, and the consequent deaths of two children.

This accident has been widely reported if you do a little research... and those are the conclusions of the relevent court.


"And most importantly remove the last statement in your post. Don't think the parents of the two children who died in the accident in the States would like to see what you have written."

I think it would be much more upsetting for the parents of the two children to see that people refuse to learn from their deaths, and will only act if they see more.
 
orbister said:
That people who sail without ballast a boat designed to be sailed with ballast are asking for trouble, and have only themselves to blame?
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i find this deeply offensive actually...

So the two children who died in the US had themselves to blame did they?

You dont think its reasonable that if we can make a simple design change that we should do so??

You never make mistakes of course...
 
orbister said:
Just like every dinghy in the world does, you mean? And like the Macgregor doesn't do if properly used? Shall we introduce catamarans to the discussion?

Sorry, but BOAT BITES IF MISUSED is not the most terrifying news I've ever seen.
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Dinghies may be blown over, yachts shouldn't.

Last time I went out on my own it was a F5. There was me and there were three dinghies, and no-one else. All three dinghies were blown over, and I'd be surprised if any one was surprised by that. My boat didn't, and I'd be surprised if anyone was surprised by that too. I kept an eye on the dinghies, just in case, but they were each carrying two crew and got themselves righted and set off again just fine.

That's the difference between yachts and dinghies, and why the marketing of them is so critical for safety. YACHT HEELS TO 91 DEGREES OR WORSE AND THEN STAYS THERE is absolutely terrifying as far as I'm concerned. I know how to right a dinghy and I know how to right a liferaft. I've never tried a whole yacht, worse still with my kids trapped inside.
 
as a matter of curiosity...


I've just read the manufacturer's website. http://www.macgregor26.com/

Apart from an interesting video of an M26 in 50kts wind and waves, they mention that the new version has an additional 300 lbs of internal lead ballast. There is also a rather naive and tendentious comparison with the Hunter Edge - rather like comparing apples with pineapples.

There's an Australian article which talks about the M26 being heavily modified from its first appearance in Oz.

Development is a great idea isn't it ? And a good job they they have so much permanent flotation that the hull can float even with the interior full of water. pace Sadlers, Etap....

I just wonder if the Macwight skipper opened the water valve to reduce the ballast a bit, and then forgot to close it because of the proximity of other boats.
 
photodog said:
i find this deeply offensive actually...
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Your delicacy of feeling does you great credit.

So the two children who died in the US had themselves to blame did they?
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Well, obviously not. The person who used the boat was to blame though, just as those who kill their crew or passengers by other acts of omission or irresponsibility are to blame

You dont think its reasonable that if we can make a simple design change that we should do so??
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What, like making every dinghy in the world self-righting and banning any sails larger than a trysail and a storm jib? Are you going to ban lifting keels as well?

The Macgregor ain't my cup of tea, but there seems no doubt that, used as intended, it is more than adequately stable.

You never make mistakes of course...
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You off to wrap all the local rocks in cotton wool, then, in case someone makes a mistake?
 
photodog said:
i find this deeply offensive actually...
Click to expand...
Your delicacy of feeling does you great credit.

So the two children who died in the US had themselves to blame did they?
Click to expand...
Well, obviously not. The person who used the boat was to blame though, just as those who kill their crew or passengers by other acts of omission or irresponsibility are to blame

You dont think its reasonable that if we can make a simple design change that we should do so??
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What, like making every dinghy in the world self-righting and banning any sails larger than a trysail and a storm jib? Are you going to ban lifting keels as well?

The Macgregor ain't my cup of tea, but there seems no doubt that, used as intended, it is more than adequately stable.

You never make mistakes of course...
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You off to wrap all the local rocks in cotton wool, then, in case someone makes a mistake?
 
photodog said:
It has been repeatedly shown , in many many different walks of life, that humans will not always read instructions or follow directions. The reasons being overfamiliarity, arrogance, lack of language skills, inability to retain information, drunkeness, poor quality training, etc etc.

So, under these circumstances is it reasonable that something as important as the ulitmate stability of a small yacht is left to a set of instructions or stickers.. which may or may not be followed or available to the current owner or operator of a small boat?
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Yes, it's entirely reasonable. Lots of things about sailing are potentially dangerous. If you start banning movable ballast because someone might forget to install it, what are you going to ban next? Outboard motors in case someone runs over a swimmer? Sailing at night in case someone forgets to put the lights?

I have a boat with a lifting keel. Do you want to ban that too?
 
aknight said:
That's the difference between yachts and dinghies, and why the marketing of them is so critical for safety. YACHT HEELS TO 91 DEGREES OR WORSE AND THEN STAYS THERE is absolutely terrifying as far as I'm concerned. I know how to right a dinghy and I know how to right a liferaft. I've never tried a whole yacht, worse still with my kids trapped inside.
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In that case, make sure you put the ballast in if you sail a Macgregor, and don't ever go on a catamaran.
 
Re this argument, it would seem dead easy to modify the boat at the building stage (and maybe post?) so that it is neutrally safe (ballast fills automatically) rather than neutrally unsafe (a conscious decision is required to fill ballast).

Neutrally unsafe is unsatisfactory, and it may be culpable in a litigious society.
 
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you're all wrong. It clearly is a stable and seaworthy boat. In fact looking at it now on it's side it looks better and more stable than it does the right way up. :)

As an aside, when chatting to someone close to the sales team a few years ago we discussed what happens to macgregors. They have sold loads and loads over the past years and yet you clearly never see them being used much. We did conclude that the usual pattern must be use once then lock away safely as garden storage devices.
 
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Just out of interest I have just read the safety infornation on the Macgregor website and I was pleased to see under the heading: SPECIAL SAFETY INFORMATION 26M, they say: "THE WATER BALLAST TANK SHOULD BE FULL WHEN EITHER POWERING OR SAILING. " which you would of thought would have been the end of it.............but no, they then go on to give instructions on how you should operate it with the ballast tank empty!!!!!!

Perhaps we can get their elf and safety experts to right the safety instructions for my new lawnmower:
Do not place your fingers into the moving blades of the lawnmower.
If you want to place your fingers into the moving blades of the lawnmower you should take the following precautions:
Don't wear your best cricketing whites as the blood will be a bu**er to wash out
Pick your nose for the last time BEFORE you place your fingers in the blade.
Make sure you place your fingers into the blades on a warm day so that you will keep warm whilst waiting for the paramedics.......

That makes the mower completely safe! :rolleyes:

PS. If you are going to read the full warnings on their website make sure you are sitting comfortably first..........
 
orbister said:
Yes, it's entirely reasonable. Lots of things about sailing are potentially dangerous. If you start banning movable ballast because someone might forget to install it, what are you going to ban next? Outboard motors in case someone runs over a swimmer? Sailing at night in case someone forgets to put the lights?

I have a boat with a lifting keel. Do you want to ban that too?
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According to your profile, you have a Westerly Jouster, so I'm guessing stub keel, drop fin, about 1000 lbs ballast maybe. No I think we'll let you keep that, provided you don't find the quick release button for the ballast.
 
photodog said:
Well of course its my opinion....

Am I not allowed to have one??



I think it would be much more upsetting for the parents of the two children to see that people refuse to learn from their deaths, and will only act if they see more.
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Yes, of course you are allowed an opinion - but it is just that. The "opinion" - no more than that the conclusion of the technical "experts" of the body that certified the boat say that it meets the requirements of Category C and that it can be operated safely as designed. I do not see anything in the journalistic reports of the one unfortunate accident that would change that view. The boat was overloaded and was not being operated correctly in accordance with the manufacturers instructions. If this is a faithful account - end of story.

There are anywhere between 30 annd 50 people on average that die in boating related accidents in the UK every year. A tiny number, and almost never the result of a design failure (I say almost never because there are some rare cases, usually involving racing boats). And none of them have involved a Macgregor as far as I know.

It is not a question of waiting for something to happen, it is the combined wisdom and experience of responsible people who set standards that result in acceptable products.

And your implication in your disgusting statement that people who buy such a product and then die, (which they do not) deserve it and are better not here has no place in a serious discussion on safety.

So take your blinkers off, and recognise that not everybody sees the world in the same way that you do.
 
There are anywhere between 30 annd 50 people on average that die in boating related accidents in the UK every year.
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Are you sure?

Can you show is some stats as I thought is was on average one or two?
 
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