Wifi on board

[prv]

Is there any decent WIFI antenna that can use VHF coax infrastructure

At work I believe our fitters use LMR400 for all antenna wiring, which would include both VHF and things like WiFi and LTE. So it seems like in theory it ought to be compatible, but probably the quality of a random old bit of VHF coax will be well below what's desirable for high frequencies and lower power and result in more loss than a new installation. Whether that's enough to make a difference to your situation is probably suck-it-and-see really.

If there's already cable in place, can you not use it to pull in a new length?

Pete

 

[prv]

bewildering array indeed, I better shut up and not post again before I properly study all my options

FWIW if I was doing something like you, I quite like the idea of the NetMetal ac2 on the boat (albeit in my case I was looking for a low-profile mast mount). It's a convincing-looking small metal box that's IP66 rated. It has 2.4GHz and 5GHz wifi built in, and accepts a plug-in card for the LTE (allowing future-proofing like the earlier 4G / 5G concerns, and for different frequency allocations around the world). They have a Cat6 card supporting up to 300MBps downlink listed at $99. I haven't looked into antennas - as you say, would want omnis on the boat but you could fit directional units on the house and/or office.

Pete

 

[lustyd]

separate reply for the points you raise lystyd

first thanks for the time taking to reply to all that!

two concurrent TEAMS/Zoom meetings is my aim when onboard in the summer using 4G, so if you're doing so fine with the RUT240, I'm happy also with cat4.
when at port, I may attend a teams meeting once every couple of months if I cannot be bothered to walk 1km back home for some reason, not serious. It's mainly going to be controlling and playing with systems remotely.

I wonder if I you could point a few v.good antennas for wifi and 4G,
For example, I do have on the coachroof a short stub VHF antenna which after fitting a hardtop and adding a decent antenna up there I don't need anymore. Is there any decent WIFI antenna that can use VHF coax infrastructure (it's only 2.5m from antenna to lower helm where I could fit the router)?
Or am I better off getting a Ubiquiti Bullet M2 and be done with as far as port wifi access is concerned?

cheers

V.

From what I can tell from a quick read of that Ubiquiti product it's just a router in a small package so doesn't add a lot aside from a requirement for PoE for which you'd need a solution on board ilke the TSW100 I mentioned. It certainly looks cheap, although I'd question the logic of a waterproof gromet on the bottom and an open metal connector on the top for the antenna connection - you might want to find a way to protect that from the elements as it'll be outside (Irealise Greece has fewer "elements" dripping on it . The other router (RUT240) would do exactly the same thing in the same way since you'd plug the same antenna into it, it just wouldn't need any other parts since it also does the rest of the networking - I couldn't see whether the Ubiquiti repeated the wifi signal or not. Using the RUT you don't need the TSW100 as it will connect to the 12v/24v system on your mobo directly since you don't have a huge mast to run cable up.

Also worth mentioning that directional network kit is generally very directional so you may suffer drops at anchor as you swing about. It's hard to say until you try a few things in your situation. Personally for a few hundred metres I'd just have a bash with a wifi router and see what happens

 

[prv]

Also worth mentioning that directional network kit is generally very directional so you may suffer drops at anchor as you swing about.

I think the idea was for a directional antenna on the building, pointing at the boat's home berth, and an omni on the boat.

Pete

 

[vas]

thanks for the input,

OK, looks like there's no point in the ubiquiti, np!
btw, lustyd we do have less water falling down, but when it does, boy it makes a mess! Never seen downpours like we get here in the 10yrs I lived in the UK, so yes, the idea of an unprotected antenna mount on top of the barrel thing, is not v.smart unless under a shed or something.
Pete, you're right the idea was a directional on the building, omni onboard.

So I'll order the RUT first maybe tonight, see how it goes, then most likely get the QuSpot antenna, so follow lustyd approach.
Yes, wont bother with PoE solutions, got nice thick wiring waiting at the h/t.
Only issue is that I've routed v.stupidly two green bus cables up there (2 twisted pairs in each) and only one ethernet one which is used by the Garmin GMR24HD radome.

So last Q for the day (hopefully!) is there a way to share the ethernet cable with the radar???
Don't mind not having data connection if I'm using the radar tbh, wouldn't be in a meeting and navigating in the Med in conditions that would need radar!
Worse comes to worse, I'll struggle and route another cable through the hard top pillars, not easy but not really impossible with a fair amount of swearing...

cheers

V.

 

[lustyd]

I certainly didn’t say no point, others here know that solution better than I do so please do listen to them about that one

 

[lustyd]

Initially I’d test just with power cables without mounting. You don’t need Ethernet if you have power as the networking will be WiFi at that point. I think you could use the two ports on the RUT so one to the wider network and one to radar locally but you ought to check that yourself for your network. It’s just Ethernet though so in theory will be fine. Putting two cables into the quspot might cause waterproofing issues but I’m sure you can deal with that.

 

[RobbieW]

....
OK, looks like there's no point in the ubiquiti, np!
btw, lustyd we do have less water falling down, but when it does, boy it makes a mess! Never seen downpours like we get here in the 10yrs I lived in the UK, so yes, the idea of an unprotected antenna mount on top of the barrel thing, is not v.smart unless under a shed or something.
....
So last Q for the day (hopefully!) is there a way to share the ethernet cable with the radar???
....

It may be that the Mikrotik kit is more up to date or flexible but the objection to the Bullet isnt valid in my experience. I have one with an omni antenna directly attached, the N type connector is IP66 and just to be sure I put amalgamating tape round the joint. I used to hoist the combo up the port flag halyard to try and access wifi when in the med (gave up and switched to mobile around 2014) and didnt have water ingress problems.

You should be able to try sharing with a cheap, unpowered switch, it effectively tees the connection.

 

[lustyd]

Haha that’s why I said listen to you and not me ?

 

[vas]

me again..

spent a few hours studying and I insist that considering I want a 4G/wifi combo solution bullet is not useful on the boat, so looks like I'll get the kit that lustyd has.
otoh, bullet with a reasonable gain n-type connector antenna, could be my option for home or office (if existing routers are deep inside the bldg, haven't asked the technicians where they have them).

so looks like I may need both, as if I get the bullet for the boat, I still need a decent solution for 4G and then the whole thing gets cumbersome with cables and antennas everywhere, not my cup of tea tbh.
still learning and figuring things out, will report when I get something working

 

[Ozzie54321]

I endorse Teltonika as a manufacturer. We fitted a RUT950 in the boat almost exactly 3 years ago and it seems to be a very well-built piece of kit. Now that I have got used to the interface (the browser page that gets you in to manage the router's settings) I find I am very comfortable with it. I have not yet installed the masthead shelter+antenna but that will be done this year.

When the router was new I had a problem and got through to Teltonika support, they were very helpful (the problem was unexpected congestion on the channel we had chosen).

I have consolidated everything to be SIM only on a single contract wit EE. The contract provides over 100Gb per month data allowance and I can swap ("gift") the data around between phones, tablets, and the boat as required. At the beginning of each accounting period I set everything up with the data allowance I think will be needed. If a particular device starts to run out of data it pings me a warning and I "gift" it some more data. I never need to swap SIM cards and there is only one bill to pay. The RUT950 has a dual SIM card slot so when we are in Europe I will buy a local card with EU-wide roaming and that's the only time I will need to change cards.

You will only know when you try it. Sorry, that's how it is. But the Teltonika routers are a world away from a mobile phone.

Yes, the loss of cellular signal over hard-wires is enormous. That is why the trend is towards putting the router up the mast and either broadcasting WiFi from there or using ethernet to bring the data down the mast to a WiFi hotspot.

Our router has a WAN connection to a WiFi bridge. This should do what you want.

I have a friend who is having to diversify his business because of Covid. He is an expert in this sort of thing. If anyone would like a quote please PM me.

Does anyone think there would be a market for a self-installation kit whereby all the necessary hardware would come in a single box with all the cables prepared and labelled + illustrated instructions for installation by the boat owner?

Hello, I am fitting a RUT 950 as well, but am unsure on what external antenna to buy to put up the mast, can I have some recommendations. Should it be a passive antenna? If so is 10m of cable too long to get strength of signal? Thanks in anticipation ?

 

[Jokani]

what external antenna to buy to put up the mast

For those that have deep pockets , this would do the job OMNI-402 you would need the marine mount version. Looks a good match with the Teltonika - No experience to back this up though, but I'm considering pairing one with a RUTX11, just the price holding me back.

 

[lustyd]

or the QuSpot for the 950 and use the same method I originally described, assuming you don't need access to the SIM often.

QuWireless QuSpot for RUT950/RUT900 Integrated Multi-band LTE Omni Antennas + WiFi Omni Antennas All In One (A950S)

 

[Jokani]

assuming you don't need access to the SIM often.

Yep, that would be a deal breaker for me, I wouldn't want to climb the mast whenever I wanted to swap a sim over.

 

[lustyd]

Fair enough, for most people that would not even be an annual event so the simplicity of the system and the extended range would be worth it. Hopefully they will come out with a virtual SIM at some point on these routers as it would definitely be more convenient!

 

[Elessar]

Hi all, I thought it might be useful to expand on something I said on another thread yesterday given the "work from boat" environment many of us now live in. This solution was suggested to me on another group but I could see very little mention of it on this forum despite it being a really great one, hence posting it here. This is a 4G Internet solution based on Teltonika industrial networking kit. It's cheap, it works very well, and it's dead easy to install. Components are:
Teltonica RUT240 ~£120 - This is your Internet router and houses the SIM card
QuWireless QuSpot for RUT240 ~ £80 - this is a weatherproof housing for the router which also includes antennas for wifi and 4G (the router has these but they are replaced by this housing)
Teltonika TSW100 ~£70 - This is just an Ethernet switch, but runs on 12/24V and provides power over Ethernet to the router.

The TSW100 will act as a switch for your RADAR and MFDs, connecting all of them together over Ethernet - you might need to make up your own cable to connect to standard RJ45. This switch runs on 7-58VDC and so will be happy on most boat systems of 12V or 24V despite the variable voltage. A cable is available to wire it directly in to the boat supply. The switch also provides power over Ethernet (PoE) to the router, meaning you only need one cable to run up the mast, an Ethernet cable which you can easily make yourself with off the shelf components, or just buy a long one. This cable can replace the Glomex TV cable and the router can mount where the Glomex used to be. I'm assuming most people don't use their Glomex antenna these days, and will switch to streaming services once the WiFi is in.

The RUT240 can run directly on boat power with the same voltages as the switch - I have mine temporarily installed in the cigar lighter socket on board. Alternatively it will happily use PoE, which is recommended for mast top installations. This (tiny!) unit will live inside of the weatherproof QuSpot on the top of the mast, with a gromet sealing the single Ethernet cable on the entry point. Antennas inside the QuSpot will connect to the router to replace the ones which came with the router. Before mounting you'll also need to install a 4G SIM, I used a completely unlimited £20/month one from Three but any will work. It's fast enough for streaming two things at once so plenty of data is recommended. The interface is accessed via browser either through Wifi or Ethernet, with both working equally well. It's possible to use this unit to rebroadcast shore wifi too, and the higher end versions have two SIM slots so you can more easily roam or have a higher availability solution.

Once installed, your various devices including MFDs can use the WiFi freely. My B&G plotter syncs over this wifi and gets weather data automatically to overlay on the chart. Because the switch can be connected to your MFDs they can also use the wired network if they support that.

One last thing to note - many of the "boat wifi" solutions which will no doubt be referenced on this thread have this exact router inside them. Teltonika supply these to industry who add on a housing like the QuSpot, £500 profit margin, and a "for boats" sticker then sell it to you This whole setup is under £300 for reliable WiFi which works many miles off shore (I've been told 20 is reasonable). Hopefully helpful to someone out there!

View attachment 104946

Thanks for this and I'm going to copy you.

At the moment I use a 4G router mounted high in the cabin but I want a stronger signal.

Any reason I can't leave out the TSW 100 if I only want wifi? 12V - whatever voltage converter to the RUT 240 instead?
Or I could just use one of these I guess. Hopcd POE Injectors, DC 12V-48V 4-Port POE Power: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

What data sim do you use? Or more precisely which provider?

 

[lustyd]

My current setup has the RUT240 connected directly to 12V and it works fine, the switch is just to give power over Ethernet and so that RADAR can use it, but for wifi it's not needed at all. Teltonica do a cable with bare ends for this purpose, but it's a standard connector if you have the ability to crimp one. I could only find the connectors in bulk though so for me it was cheaper and easier to buy the cable. Teltonika 058R-00229 internal power cable 2 m: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

The QuSpot is also optional. If you're a power boat then the difference between the included antennas in the cockpit and a QuSpot externally on the roof might not be huge so I'd recommend that you give it a go with just the router initially. As I think I said, I put a car socket plug on mine for testing purposes.

I use a 3 sim with unlimited data which is about £20/month. It seems fine in the Solent and gets me enough speed to stream TV and movies

 

[lustyd]

Oh, one more thing is if you already have a marine network switch for your MFDs or RADAR then you could connect it to the network port of this to give your devices Internet access. My MFD gets weather and updates through the network. Obviously this is vendor specific though!

 

[Elessar]

Thank

Oh, one more thing is if you already have a marine network switch for your MFDs or RADAR then you could connect it to the network port of this to give your devices Internet access. My MFD gets weather and updates through the network. Obviously this is vendor specific though!

Thank you. My plotter connects to the wifi for updates so all good there.

I would prefer the external antenna as the top of the radar arch is 16 feet or so in the air, it gives it clear line of sight, and gets it out of the way. So i'll get the power cable you recommended and the Qu spot. Only thing I don't like about it is it looks hard to mount on a flat surface without cutting a hole in it. I'll find a way.

I have a SIM that says it's 3 but via smarty or something. Unlimited data but I'm sure it throttles I often have to switch to my tethered iphone even for zoom. Currently (as I type) getting 0.52Mbps down and 9.71 up. It's usually 2 or 3 Mbps up.

EE is definitely faster but unlimited deals expensive and they are such a PITA to deal with, a stand out even in an industry full of worst practice customer service.

 

[lustyd]

One thing you should bear in mind - this will be slower than your phone. It's LTE Category 4 which is quite old, but it will maintain a stronger connection more of the time so should be much more consistent than a phone (which are now category 14 or more!).

Radar arch will be a good spot, but make sure it's not level with the actual radar - I don't know if it'd cause damage but I can't imagine having them level would be good when the radar is on. I suspect that for mounting you might get away with raising it a couple of cm using a GPS Antenna mount or something similar, which could be glued down easily enough. Do a dry run before mounting so you can test wifi around the boat. If the radar arch is metal it might block a signal, and water and fuel tanks, engines, etc. might also block signals. Easy on a single floor yacht but your boat may have a more complex layout, although I'm guessing most things like that will be low down.