Wifi on board

[RobbieW]

Well then today's your lucky day since the Teltonika OS is based on that exact ecosystem

What's your problem with a SIM at the mast head? It's a SIM, it just provides an ID.

The slight problem being that Teltonika's OpenWRT was home rolled and I dont think is supported by thier mainstream branches so is now some years out of date. As to the SIM at the masthead, I was cruising before the ubiquity of trans national SIMs so used to get a SIM for each country - a situation that we may still end up with

 

[RobbieW]

I’m not sure I’d call it “lack of investment” so much as “effective coverage planning”. The mobile networks don’t intend to provide coverage over the sea, so if a mast doesn’t waste power or hardware sending radio waves offshore where nobody (in Vodafone and EE’s opinion) lives or works, the designer has done their assigned job well.

Pete

Nonetheless I'd expect far better coverage off France, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Italy etc than the UK from experience

 

[lustyd]

To be fair Teltonika are squarely aimed at the same market and industrial IoT is their current happy place. It's just kind of lucky they based themselves on OpenWRT to make it usable but the hardware is all industrial as can be seen by the accessories. The support wiki is a bit "community" at best

 

[lustyd]

The slight problem being that Teltonika's OpenWRT was home rolled and I dont think is supported by thier mainstream branches so is now some years out of date. As to the SIM at the masthead, I was cruising before the ubiquity of trans national SIMs so used to get a SIM for each country - a situation that we may still end up with

They also have a version with multiple SIM slots which will automatically roam based on rules you define. In the modern world EU roaming isn't an issue (UK may shortly be an exception!) but you're right that in more exotic places it could be a chore swapping them out. Personally, having used this kit I'd take a trip up the mast any day in exchange for strong signal in protected anchorages. It's certainly a niche solution but it's a good one and a cheap one so thought it worth sharing as it doesn't seem to have been covered before

 

[lustyd]

Also worth noting that thanks to the switch you could easily add a second router at deck level for convenience. The OS would then allow you to route between the two quite easily over the LAN.

 

[RobbieW]

...It's certainly a niche solution but it's a good one and a cheap one so thought it worth sharing as it doesn't seem to have been covered before

Apologies, tried not to be too negative. Suppliers who take open source code and then close source it for thier devices rub me up the wrong way. ROOter has its origins in Australia where long distance mobile connections are still a way of life. There are still folk running tiny TP Link 703s connected to a dongle with an external antenna port connected to a directional YAGI all in outside boxes powered by solar!

 

[lustyd]

All comments are welcome, this doesn't seem a common subject on the boards so it'll be useful to collect different solutions. I liked the simplicity and finished nature of this one because I have work to do and no free time to mess about any more. 10 years ago I'd have made all sorts of custom open source things, and had fun doing it. These days I just need to turn up at the boat and have everything work for work wherever I happen to be. The other end of the spectrum will be those who want no Internet on board because they want to cut the cord, but there will be the everyone in between who may find this thread and find useful suggestions. If you have a complete one please do post tehe details to make it easy to replicate.
I don't care if you're negative btw, I work from the boat and am comfortable with the solution I detailed. My plotter gets Gribs before I get to the helm too

 

[LadyInBed]

I work from the boat and am comfortable with the solution I detailed

Remind me about work?
I think it was something you did before pensions kicked in ?

 

[RobbieW]

Remind me about work?
I think it was something you did before pensions kicked in ?

Keep it civil

 

[RobbieW]

If you have a complete one please do post tehe details to make it easy to replicate.

I think that, for me, having a dedicated SIM on the boat that I cant easily get at is step too far. I dont have a landline, my home broadband is entirely SIM based so I'd want to take it with me rather than the expense of running another SIM. So, you have the market complexity of choosing a SIM for the boat that supports mobile broadband. For simplicity, I'd use a simple router on the boat that could connect to a hotspot created by my phone or MiFi. The rest of the network is as you outline. It might not work in a few anchorages, but thats as likely to be the network I chose for the SIM not being present. In summary, there are some areas of detail that your solution doesnt easily cover.

 

[prv]

my home broadband is entirely SIM based so I'd want to take it with me rather than the expense of running another SIM.

That’s sort of the reason this type of solution doesn’t really make sense for me as someone who doesn’t need a full-time rock-solid connection for work, even though I’d quite enjoy choosing and installing one. My phone contract has plenty of data and for occasional use it doesn’t make sense to not use it and pay for a separate one instead. But if I was in Lustyd’s position I probably would, and count the phone as backup in case the boat system went out two minutes before that critical meeting.

I'd use a simple router on the boat that could connect to a hotspot created by my phone or MiFi. The rest of the network is as you outline.

If you have a wireless network created by a phone or MiFi, what would you be using the router and PoE switch for?

Pete

 

[lustyd]

The switch wouldn't need to be PoE but may as well be this one as it's cheap and has wide voltage range so isn't going to be murdered by the boat or charger. The router could actually still be this one as it can reroute wifi, but then you lose the other benefits such as not cooking your phone if you tether too long. As I said I currently use the router in the saloon so swapping the SIM is easy enough, but I don't get much better reception than the phone.
All modern SIMs support mobile broadband, if your provider suggests otherwise they are lying to you in order to create market differentiation and justify extra charges. The ONLY considerations here would be price, bundled data, roaming charges and signal. Roaming charges are probably about to get exciting again, bit with a reasonable setup the signal issue isn't much of a problem so you're left with price and data bundle. I went unlimited so we can stream movies on the boat without worry - I used about 25GB in a month and that's winter with Covid! To be fair for boat purposes you could get away with a very small data allowance as GRIB files are tiny and plotter updates fairly rare.
As onboard electronics start to come into the networked age I think this kind of setup will become very commonplace. I can certainly see a world where everyone who would have fitted a Glomex aerial and TV will fit broadband, and there are thousands of those in the marinas. It'll also be nice to move seamlessly between laptops and MFDs when planning and sailing with all the current data on both systems

 

[lustyd]

Remind me about work?
I think it was something you did before pensions kicked in ?

Yes that's the one. Except I'll be doing it from the boat while sailing rather than waiting to become old to gain my freedom

 

[RobbieW]

If you have a wireless network created by a phone or MiFi, what would you be using the router and PoE switch for?

Essentially, as outlined in the OP, to be able to interconnect MFDs, RADAR etc to laptops and so on. My Simrad MFD provides a data stream in NMEA 0183 of a lot (all?) of the input it gets or generates, that comes from port 10110 on the MFD IP address and is probably intended to be used by Navicos own wifi hub. I currently use a switch to tee the RADAR output to both the MFD and OpenCPN on the laptop, the NMEA stream is a byproduct of that use.

All the phone does is provide internet access to the boat router, my existing on board router could tether with a USB cable or by connecting to the phone hotspot. It can also use a USB dongle, a WiFi extender (very rarely), or another router with a built in modem to provide that access

(Edited to add some detail)

 

[RobbieW]

All modern SIMs support mobile broadband, if your provider suggests otherwise they are lying to you in order to create market differentiation and justify extra charges. The ONLY considerations here would be price, bundled data, roaming charges and signal.

That may well be correct, I dont have the experience to verify it. Certainly in the US there seems to be a great kerfuffle with people who had bought tablet plans being cut off when they use them in mifi type devices. My home broadband deliberately uses a SIM sold as mobile broadband, that doesnt get me the best rates (though data allowances are increasing, I'm now getting 150Gb for £28/month) but should mean theres minimal risk of arbitrary disconnection.

As an aside on roaming, I have found data rates throttled when using a 3 SIM in Spain. Using a local SIM in the same device vastly improved data rates and latency. I've also found, in the UK, that using MVNOs as an ISP can also deliver a less than ideal service - I've found using the 4 main providers much better, where I'm living it has to be O2 as I'm about 150m from a mast and in a slight dip that seems to block the others.

 

[Moodysailor]

Nice thread, thanks.

We did some working from the boat this summer and created a simple wifi network with a 4G router and SIM card in the cabin. We went down this road as I we can easily swap SIM cards depending on need, we have a couple so far and can pick and choose for signal strength which is useful. The whole package cost us £100 for the router, which was great for a test to see if it works. I bought a £10 DC power supply for the router so we can either run off AC or DC depending on preference. Having a conventional router is necessary for us as my wife works off a PC so needs a direct connection.

Next year I will fit an omni-directional antenna on the mast or pushpit to increase the signal range. MS Teams meetings from an anchorage sound rather enticing....

We didn't want to invest too much in a 4G router as we will upgrade to a 5G router as soon as practical (price and router choice). We already have a 5G SIM card so once the coverage is there and the increased speeds, especially for my wife's work will mean that hopefully we will only need to pop home to water the plants...

 

[RobbieW]

...We didn't want to invest too much in a 4G router as we will upgrade to a 5G router as soon as practical (price and router choice)...

My understanding is that 5G is a short range but very dense network of cells. Its not designed for remote locations, much more city centre. With the right router, you should be able to upgrade the modem for 4/5G when the price point makes more sense and the networks are there. I'm currently using a Cat6 modem, 300 down/50 up, which is of limited use in the UK as I dont believe any ISPs have implemented carrier aggregation - on the other hand I do get a consistent 20+ both up and down which is plenty for conferencing.

 

[Moodysailor]

My understanding is that 5G is a short range but very dense network of cells. Its not designed for remote locations, much more city centre. With the right router, you should be able to upgrade the modem for 4/5G when the price point makes more sense and the networks are there. I'm currently using a Cat6 modem, 300 down/50 up, which is of limited use in the UK as I dont believe any ISPs have implemented carrier aggregation - on the other hand I do get a consistent 20+ both up and down which is plenty for conferencing.

Thanks Robbie,

There isn't enough information yet on the coverage and range, but it's more of a future-proof and backwards compatibility move for us. Where 5G doesn't exist we will get 4G which is more than enough for my needs. My wife works with large data bundles and is connecting through a VPN - she definitely noticed a drop in performance compared to our home fibre speeds, so even if we can get 5G around the main hubs (towns/city's) it will at least provide a few more options and flexibility than we have now.

I just need the price to drop from £400+ for a router first

 

[Graham376]

Nonetheless I'd expect far better coverage off France, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Italy etc than the UK from experience

Certainly good 4G coverage on Portuguese coast and inland, gave up with free wi-fi years ago. Use Meo (PAYG) or Vodafone (contract) depending on where we are. Using Meo at the moment, unlimited downloads for €1 day, speed just now 20.55Mbps down, 7.06 upload.

 

[vas]

thanks to the OP!

having spent September on board with both of us having 2-3 meetings a day (Teams/Zoom) some of them concurrent, tethering of wife's mobile (Samsung S9 I think) in a couple of anchorages that signal was iffy at best, I'm v.keen to get a decent solution. Having a mobo, things are easier as I fit the whole antenna box on the f/b hardtop and still able to access it from upper helm easily.
routing an ethernet cable from there will be a bit of a problem but will see what I'll manage.
few Qs (which is a bit how long is a bit of string...) though:

compared to a mobile phone at 2m above water to this antenna 5m above water (and no obstructions around) what sort of performance/throughput difference should I expect? Mobile was 1bar signal at most on lower helm when the boat looked the "right" way
I guess there's a limitation on how long a 4G antenna can be, else you could just have the antenna way up and the h/w in the cabin.

Also keen on connecting to office network which when moored in home port is at 300-400metres away but I get nothing from my mobile. Have you tried that at all?
Network is passwd protected and all, guess you configure it once and when it finds it automagically turns to that, right?

Reason for home port internet is that I setup a raspberry pi with Victron Venus OS to monitor batteries, solar, inverter and have a decent overview of the whole el. setup on board (plus a few alarms) would rather have that on wifi and only get a data plan for June-Oct in summer

cheers

V.